Why should we pray to Virgin Mary? The reasons are many.
Why do Catholics pray to Mother Mary? Is Rosary really powerful?
The intercession of Mother Mary is very powerful as Jesus cannot neglect His mothers commands.This can be proved by the first miracle Jesus did at the wedding at Cana. – (John 2:1-11). Mother Mary told Jesus “They have no more wine.” And what was the final result? He turned water into wine.
In “The Poem of the Man-God” by Maria Valtorta, she says that Jesus told her about this incident as “I did it for Mary”. This proves that the intercession of Mother Mary is very very strong.
Mother Mary was blessed with Holy Spirit abundantly. We can see this as we read “At that time Mary got ready and hurried to a town in the hill country of Judea, where she entered Zechariah’s home and greeted Elizabeth. When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.” (Luke 1:39-41) ; just by Virgin Mary’s greeting.
Listen to the talk from Apologetics on Mary, Purgatory and The Bible
What the angels thought on this matter:-
When angel appeared before Zechariah,father of John, angel just greets him by his name ,nothing more although he was “upright in the sight of God, observing all the Lord’s commandments and regulations blamelessly.” – (Luke 1:6)
When angel appeared before Joseph, the greeting was like this: “an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.” – (Matthew 1:20). Angel greeted him ‘son of david’, thats all.
Now let us see how did the angel greet Virgin Mary. It goes like this: “The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.” (Luke 1:28). See the difference….
Also read the article Mary, The Mystical Rose
THis is very poor theology. First of all, Jesus id our King and Savior and he is our intercessor whom died for our sins, not Mary. She was an Earthly vessle that was pure that God choose to use, YES. But Devine in no way. Second when we pass from the Earth we do not become Angleic being’s. Lastly I would like the writer of this blog to seriously consider what you are teaching others, I am not sayng no one is saved but no one day you will be held accountable. His bride is to be spotless and the Bridegroom is to be held at His highest value in which He deserves.
Dear Celestino,joeli,sharon & many others, i beg, you all turn back to GOD.not goddess. Christians are becoming worst than hindus to worship more than one god.If you do not want to turn back to GOD,that’s up to you,BUT DO NOT MAKE OTHERS TO TURN AGAINST GOD.Preach the BIBLE.NOT YOUR FAIRY TALES.because of people like you,many Christians are turning to hindu culture.why? because your preaching are not strong enough to stick them to GOD. you give secondary place to BIBLE and primary to your leader’s words from Rome.please go through the histories of at least last 20 popes,then you will come to know how many changes and twists they have done in law of GOD and in the CHURCH.REPENT Dears.
GOD Bless you.
3 major mistakes that the protestant founders committed, which have become errors in their teachings.
First Mistake:
In their effort to distance themselves from the Catholic Church, they conveniently forgot Amos 4.13.
I will remind them all here ( obviously, they know about it now, and are forever repentant about it )
God described Himself to Amos and to Israel:
‘..it is He who forges the mountains, creates the wind, who reveals His mind to humankind..’
God used ‘reveals’, not ‘revealed’, present tense, which means that He speaks His mind to us from the beginning of time up to now.
When protestant Churches sprang up 500 years ago, with one voice they said, and are still saying, that God’s revelations to Catholics/Orthodox, were and are from the devil.
Do you wonder then, why no ‘revelations’ from Heaven has ever been given to protestants?
Catholics and Orthodox receive revealations from God because they believe in Amos 4.13.
Second Mistake
Protestant founders threw out Transubstantiation from the Eucharist – big mistake. One of the reasons the Son of God was born as a human being, is to show us that the physical and the spiritual are inseparable. In Jesus’s case, the physical and the divine.
To deny Transubstantiation is to deny this fact. To share in the body of Christ spiritually, we must first share it physically – the physical and the spiritual are inseparable.
Jesus stressed this point in Matt 16.19, and again in Matt 18.18
To deny this fact is to deny that Jesus was both human and divine – i.e. to fall into the arms of Arius.
I suggest here that you take time to think about this point carefully. Pray and the Holy Spirit for His 7 gifts.
Third Mistake
Protestants don’t honour Our Holy Mother, the most blessed of all the women who ever lived, who carried the Word for 9 months and became the Arc of the New Covenant.
Why don’t they ?
The Rosary and all the heavenly ‘revelations’ in the past 2000 years were from the ‘Mind of God’.
Why don’t protestants accept these revelations?
The good news is, they will very soon.
Thats it everyone. I have given you what the Lord showed me.
God bless
A few minutes ago, after I had completed the Chaplet to the Holy Spirit, I opened the ‘True Life in God’ book randomly and this is the Message the Lord showed me:
‘..if some of you say ” we don’t need this prophetic revelation, we are not obliged to listen to it or read it because Scriptures are enough for us and we can learn all knowledge from them”…I ask you in your incredulity:
” do you know why you do not believe, and do you know why you are so indifferent and determined to close your heart?
do you know why you do not seek anything beyond it?”
it is because you have not the Holy Spirit who could have risen you from the darkness in to His Light enlightening your soul to see the Son together with the Father manifesting Themselves to you, the Holy Spirit would have breathed in you a resurrection breath invigorating you, giving you life in Me;
can a soul who is dead understand Scriptures and put them into practice, if he is not alive?
If you would have understood the Scriptures that are as a mirror reflecting My Image, you would not have said:
” Scriptures are enough for me;”
no, My friend, Scriptures are not enough if you do not possess the Holy Spirit; it is through the Light of the Holy Spirit that Revelations can be understood..and impenetrable mysteries of Scriptures would become knowable and clear…
..I tell you truly: anyone who has willingly accepted Me, even now when I AM speaking, is blessed, because through Me he receives Knowledge and Wisdom in such a prodigious way that it is as though he has read all the Scriptures….’
For a long time I have often wondered how protestants who can rattle off Scripture verses like abc, can at the same time ‘spit’ out venom on their brothers and sisters-catholic. The reason is what the Lord showed me above.
My advice to all readers of this post, if you haven’t done so already, get a copy of the ‘True Life in God’ book – this is for the salvation of your soul, or for the sheer joy in hearing the Lord’s voice (nb. there is a lot of sadness too, for our sins, ofcourse)
The Lord bless you and keep you
Dear Joli,
Please dont repeat the vatican stories here. The Rosary and all the heavenly ‘revelations’ in …..
Did anyone say rosary in early church? did Mary used this rosary in her life?
Transubstantiation – can you show me this word in bible?
did Jesus say his mother will appear worldwide? and to follow his mother ?
Regarding your last post
“no, My friend, Scriptures are not enough if you do not possess the Holy Spirit; …..
I am sure you are not read bible .
Mathew 10:7 Go and proclaim this message: The kingdom of heaven is near.
Mark 16:15 Then he told them, “Go out to the whole world and proclaim the Good News to all creation.
Acts 5:20 “Go and stand in the Temple court and tell the people the whole of this living message.”
2 Corin 10:16 So we shall bring the Gospel to places beyond yours without entering into the field of others,
They proclaimed the Gospel and spread the Gospel. NOT traditions and man made rules and laws.
Jesus is going to judge us based on his words. NOT Pope’s words.
wake up man. cathoilc church will not going to save you. Rosary and scapular not going to save you. read the bible
If you are a Roman Catholic:
1. You must not eat meat during the time of lent
2. You must pray through Mary, because if you do, Jesus Christ her son is more likely to hear you than if you don’t.
3. You must acknowledge that Mary was bodily assumed into heaven and is now officially the queen of heaven.
4. You must acknowledge that Mary is forever the virgin, and that she never at any one time knew Joseph, her husband.
5. You must go to the confessional box and let the priest Roman Catholic priest forgive your sins.
6. You must pray with the rosary, every time you pray.
7. You must be baptized in order to be regenerated, this must esp. happen when you are an infant.
8. You must keep pleading through the dead saints, for they are now closer to Jesus than you are, and your prayers are more likely to be heard on time.
9. You must keep praying for your dead relatives, and conduct mass for them if you can, just in case they landed in purgatory, and you need to help them get out of there soonest possible.
10. You must attend mass.
11. You must agree that the bread you eat and the blood you drink in the Lord’s table has been consecrated by the presiding priest to be the real flesh and real blood of Jesus Christ. That the RC priest has got the power and authority to thus do.
12. You must believe that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ here on earth, and that he is keeper of the keys.
13. You must agree that the pope is infallible, that he makes no mistakes while he sits on Peter’s seat.
14. you must agree that the RC traditions and teachings, however how aberrant they may be, are superior to the teachings of scripture.
15. You must believe that if you are not a Roman Catholic, you are lost and you do not belong to the church.
16. You must be convinced that if you are not a Roman Catholic, you will not inherit the kingdom of heaven.
dear cathoilc friends …. read bible and hear the word of god…
Brother Murali , I am quite amused of your reply. Pardon me from saying you missed my point thousands of miles! I never stated in my letter we turn against God. Have you seen a single instant I made such declaration? Other writers before me openly challenges us to prove our belief of Mary (and why we honor Her), through some passages in the scripture because they believe we cannot show them anything. Mind you I am not a storyteller of fairy tales. What had been written has been supported by the biblical passages you asked us to provide; in order to justify our acceptance of Her and why we hold Her so dearly into our hearts. For your information, brother, history of our fore fathers are properly recorded, I wonder where did you get yours? I doubt you are knowledgeable to the history of our Church and fore fathers, because if you did, you will be guided accordingly.
It is not my intention to hurt someone’s feeling but the vicious attacked to other people’s faith especially to our Mother Church is deplorable. In Islam though they have denomination like us you cannot just openly attacked their faith in fear of reprisal. In other words, we should respect other people’s faith. And mind you brother, criticism started not on our side. Have you seen a priest openly criticize other Christian denomination? You can only find them outside our Church…like their favorite allegation we worship Mary; but the truth is we venerate and honor Mary. The accusation of She bore another sons from Joseph after Jesus; but the truth is they were the disciples of Jesus (the brethren of our Lord). The queen of heaven in Jeremiah; they referred it to Mary but Catholics knows it refers to Astoreth or Astarte the goddess of Canaanites, they think we are totally ignorant of that issue. The Holy Rosary they say repetitive prayers? All of these started to their teachers and preachers whose target to be converted came out from our own number.
Soul search brother, it is not late to accept Mary as your Mother to be rightfully called brother of Christ. I tell you truly, faith in Christ which does not include His Mother is another Christ. Jesus I trust in you. Oh’ Mary conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee!
Dear Joeli,
Your article (#1060); March 24, 2012; caught my attention, this is about calling a priest father: you mentioned, as I quote, “Several months ago, I opened the TLIG book at random during my early morning prayers, then I saw it. The Lord mentioned a Father… which put me at ease. I think it was the one and only instance in the whole book.†Joeli, like you I am Catholic, that’s why I am interested to know where I can find it and I shall consider it as additional knowledge I may learn from you. I have few verses I hold in believing, that the first Christian traditionally calls their leaders (disciples / priest) father, but these may surely be put to objections especially of our dear brothers of other denominations who will readily look in literal application. Because for all we know the exact application may not apply to the author calling himself “fatherâ€, while he was addressing the concerned recipient especially in writing. Like for example, if you insert the word ’father’ in this sentence “I am writing to you, my own children†it would be a little off to me, especially if you would not rephrase the whole sentence. There were few verses in the scripture that the first apostle/disciple addressing his new recruit, children, though we know for sure that he was referring to the member of his congregation. (1John2:1)†I am writing this, my children, to stop you sinning;†(1John2:12)â€I am writing to you, my own children, whose sin have already been forgiven through his name;†and, (1John2:18) “Children these are the last day:…†If apostle’s John address his members children it will be highly unlikely in return that his members doesn’t call him back ‘father’ of their faith. And by tradition been put in to practice up to this present time. Passed by the elders to their junior disciples: (Titus1:9) “And he must have a firm grasp of the unchanging message of the tradition, so that he can be counted on for both expounding the sound doctrine and refuting those who argue against it.†And, “2(Tim.2:15) “Stand firm, then, brothers, and hold the traditions that we taught you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.â€This is the same, in the first letter of Peter, (1Ptr5:13) “Your sister in Babylon, who is with you, sends you greeting; so does my son Mark.†I believe that the name Mark mentioned here is the same Mark who was with him during their journey in the Acts of the Apostles. This may be true that Peter was the first Pope “father “of the Universal Church. This is the same manner, when Paul addresses Timothy his son. (1Tim.1:18) “Timothy my son, these are my instruction that I am giving to you:â€
IN (2kings2:12) “ Elisha saw it, and shouted, ‘My father! My father! Chariot of Israel and its chargers!’ We know for sure that Elisha was a protégé of Elijah!
Joeli, I will be waiting to your favorable reply. Jesus I trust in you! Oh†Mary conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee!
@joeli:
A couple of things you need to answer and be aware:
(i) Who are the “protestants�
(ii) What were they protesting about?
(iii) Who was the protestant founder – Martin Luther?
Bible believing Christians do not “believe†extra biblical revelations that are not supported in scripture. They are simply revelations of the devil who has the ability to transform himself into an angel of Light. The revelations in the Bible are complete and sufficient and there are no more revelations that can be added to the scripture.
The Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation is false in view of 2 Corinthians 5:16 for it makes St.Paul a liar. Also it goes against the so-called “Apostle’s Creed†– which says … He (Jesus) ascended into heaven.. he will come to judge the living and the dead (Second coming). Is this not the prayer you recite in the Catholic Church? Now does Jesus really come into the white-wafer biscuit called the Host or Eucharist? Then can we truly say that Catholic priests are “black pagan magicians†who can virtually snatch Jesus from heaven at will just like how Alladin called out the Genie from his lamp? Heh! Heh!
All protestants, Christians honour Mary the mother of Jesus much like they equally honour the 12 Apostles of Jesus, All of who are saints in Heaven. Scripture instructs only worship should be given to God – (The Father, the Son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit – the Trinity). Only Jesus is the interecessor/mediator between God and man. There is no proof in scripture that Salvation is thru Mary nor the Apostles but only thru Jesus.
Holy Spirit of God only indwells in Bible Believing Christians. The scriptures are the only source of Authority – nothing more or less. All Bible believing Christians are Saints and a royal priesthood in the Body of Christ.
You say the Protestants will very soon… yes you are right. The truth is revealed in the Bible in the Book of Revelation that Apostate Churches who broke away from the faith from the Gospel of Christ will be re-uniting to make way for the Anti-Christ to appear. The Biblical revelations or prophecy has never failed and now we are more in that age where the prophecy is taking shape.
God Bless.
Dear friend…
it is up to u if you did not believe to holy Mary .don’t judge her…the only one that know everything is God..who are you to tell about the truth? no one right?
for me I believe in rosary because I already found the miracle in rosary and BELIEVE is the key of this pray…
God Bless…
Hi, I would like to say something.. If you love your dad, you obviously would love ur dad’s mom(ur grandmom) too.. Same way, if we love Jesus, we have to love His mother(Mary) too, coz she brought him to earth, and thru Mary did Jesus performed His first miracle, at Cana.. We can’t separate Jesus from Mary, and also we can’t separate Mary from Jesus, as both their lives are intertwined with each other..
The Protestants are adept at learning the Bible by heart, but they fail to understand the finer aspects and nuances of the Bible, where the Catholics are adept at.. Catholics may not know the Bible by heart, but we are adept at understanding the Bible, which is where the Protestants fail..
It was the Protestants with their so called “intelligence and scholarly mind” broke away from the Catholic Church, and formed their own group.. Now if we see, then the Protestants themselves are divided into 35000 denominations, each modifying the Bible according to what they think is right, which is forbidden by God.. unlike Catholics who are united across the world.
As for Mary, who herself has been holy throughout her life since her birth, and was given the privilege of being the Mother of Son of God(Jesus) through the Holy Spirit, was herself chosen by God since the time of Adam and Eve, when they were banished…. so who are we to say anything about Mary? For God Himself knows everything, as is given that God’s weakness is very much stronger than the inherent strength of humans and His foolishness is beyond the understanding of human intellect..
Mary holds an important place in the Church and in the Holy Trinity, which is undeniable at all. Mary holds a special place in the Holy Trinity as well, as being the Chosen Daughter of God, the Favored Wife of Holy Spirit(as is given, the Holy Spirit will come upon you and you will conceive by the power of Holy Spirit), and the Holy Mother of Jesus…
She herself has appeared in many places across the world, from England to Mexico to Austria to India to Sri Lanka, and Poland, herself appearing to Sr Faustina, at the height of World War II, to warn mankind against their sins..
Need I say anything more… Let me know then…
If you want to believe, believe, and if not, then don’t.. But don’t be an obstacle to our faith, and don’t raise fingers on the Virgin Mary..
Am proud to be a Catholic, and to be part of a rich heritage and legacy, of Angels, Saints, Priests and Nuns..
If you love your father that doesn’t mean you love all your relatives. That is just silly.
Jesus is our brother not our father.
If you love you brother that won’t make you worship his mother.
If you love your brother you wouldn’t ask your mother for something your brother has, you would ask your brother.
Mary, bless her, is not a part of the Trinity. The trinity is God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Mary is not the wife of the Holy Spirit, she was the wife of Joseph. It would be a sin for her to have married Joseph if she were married to another who was still living.
Jesus performed his first miracle through the power of God, not through Mary. Mary had no power to do anything other than ask, just like all the other people who asked Jesus for help.
The RCC is a schism which broke away from the church. Do check your history.
regards
Phil
Phil,
Your comments are flawed BIG TIME as we say in Texas. Mary asked and Jesus went against His own timing. That is her power. It is from God but God has given her that role, so she does indeed have a special power…….given by God. So don’t ignore it. Don’t throw the baby away with the bathwash applies to the mother also. At least you are not lukewarm which Jesus told Faustina was the reason He asked to “let this cup pass.” The Divine Mercy Diary she compiled is awesome in learning about Jesus.
You care and that is at least half the battle, but you are often wrong. The RCC is a great gift to the world Jesus said I will not leave you orphans. The RCC has apostolic succession. The protestants have only two of seven sacraments and we all need them all. Satan has gotten into the church and those who left are left without much of what Jesus gave us. Satan is also in the RCC but he is everywhere. He is even in our emails. He is clever. But Jesus is Lord. And his mercy is a thing of AWE. Get the diary.
peace,
Mike
For you brothers and sisters who choose to disbelieve my post of 1106, its on your head now. Its obvious that the Holy Spirit is not in you, not my conclusion, the Lord’s.
Another warning the Lord gives for those who disbelieve True Life in God. He says that you should judge a Tree by its fruit. If you see the fruits of True Life in God in the world today, and you still disbelieve, you will be blespheming against the Holy Spirit.
You should know what that means.
The Lord says that His Hymn of Love will spread through the world like the Morning Mist. It will cover the whole earth. The Body of Christ will be ONE as in the days of old.
The Father warns:
‘….woe to those who do not welcome Me in simplicity of heart..but calls evil good, and good evil; who substitute darkness for light, and light for darkness…My Spirit seeing their selfish intentions will divorce them from Me….’
Celestino, I can’t find that section again. I know that the Lord called the priest ‘Father’.. as if it was a name, not a title.
To be truthful, I am very uncomfortable with it even now after 7 years.
If I should find it, I will post again.
Phil,
As I said, since you are not a RCC, you wouldn’t understand the finer aspects of the Bible….. And you need to read the Gospel well, as it is clearly mentioned that Mary conceived thru the power of the Holy Spirit.. So Mary is not one of the Holy Trinity, but is connected to it, and has a special place in the Church and in the Trinity….
Anyways, as Mike says “Your comments are flawed BIG TIME”, you need to clear your basic concepts on the Gospel first, before arguing on anything…
And as I said, the Protestants broke away from RCC…and now they are like a divided house, divided against themselves, so you won’t really understand anything much, unless you are willing to accept the facts and understand.. This goes for all those who are arguing out here..
Ralph.
The things you say in Texas are pretty stupid then.
Mary asked Jesus to do something and he did it. Another time Jesus went off and his parents didn’t know where he was. Why is the one event more important to you than the other?
Mary had a son, Jesus, who was taken from her and was replaced with another son. This is stated quite clearly in scripture.
Mary didn’t need a special power to ask Jesus for something. The bible has quite a few people doing that. The Samaritan woman went to Jesus, he told her that he had come to the Jews and it was not write to give what was for the Jews (the children) to a samaritan (a dog). The woman prevailed because of her faith and got what she came for. She wasn’t his mother but she got Jesus to do what he appeared not willing to do.
Oddly you do not worship her, you do not make images of her and put them in your temples and you do not pray to her. Yet she got more than Mary from Jesus and she didn’t have the advantage of being his mother, or even a Jew.
Leaving that point behind, there is no indication in scripture that anyone who wasked Jesus to do something and got what they wanted therefore had some carte blanche to get whatever they wanted from him. Jesus is shown to reject the demands of Mary as well in the scripture. Did you not know that?
“46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.†48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?†49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.â€
So what Mary wanted didn’t matter then did it?
The problem is that RCs see any attempt to argue againist the false doctrines that it has about Mary as some attack on Mary. We make no attack on Mary, we attack the false mariology of the RCC.
Nobody in scripture ever sought Mary to intercede for them with Jesus. They did not call her the Queen of Heaven, nor the Bride of the Holy Spirit nor did they ascribe to her all the other silliness that the RCC does.
When one considers that Mary was long dead by the time much of the NT was written just why is it that all those RC titles are not mentioned? Why doesn’t Paul suggest praying to Mary? Why doesn’t Peter?
Mary has a special place in History, as does Abraham and so does Moses, so does Joseph, etc etc All these people were chosen by God to perform some task or tasks. They are rightly honoured as heroes of faith. But they are not “special” in any way they are prefectly normal people who were used by God.
I’d be ahppy to go through the gospel verse by verse with you. We both know that by using just the scriptures you cannot support the doctrines you espouse. Indeed some of your dogma wasn’t even necessary to believe for a RC until after 1850.
There is no shadow of turning with God because He is the truth. The RCC twists and turns, saying yes to something and later saying no to the same thing. The Popes have a long history of lying, drunkeness, whoring, murder etc etc and you wish us to say that these men are the best men God could find to be the earthly head of the church? The bible says that no murderer has eternal life in them and yet you say that they do. I must ignore you then and trust in God.
regards
Phil
Hi folks, I respect Mother Mary but do not pray to her, you ask why? Coz she has passed away and her soul amongst the dead. To me Jesus is God himself in human form who shed his blood to wash away our sins, who gave his life on the cross and rose up the third day conquering death. The Bible clearly says do not pray to any one else other than to Jesus. Asking Mother Mary to tell Jesus to accomplish something while she was alive and Jesus before crucifiction was ok since they were both physically present here but now Mary has died and her soul in paradise and Jesus has risen up to be fully God, God does not have a mother or Father. If anyone prays to Mother Mary or the saints, they cannot hear your prayers but instead Satan will pose as them and take your worship and even grant some miracles so that we move away from God. We should definitely respect Mother Mary but should not be praying to her. If God wanted us to pray to anyone else he would have let us know that but the Bible clearly says only Jesus , only his Blood can wash away sins, only he is Almighty and Holy, Amen!
Phil,
As I said earlier, before arguing about Mary and RCC and other similar things, you first need to clear your basic concepts of the Bible.. Your posts only indicate your knowledge of the Bible..
Phil & Believer well said
@ Ralph :For me Bible knowledge is enough for salvation. I dont know about you.
@ Celestina : Oh’ Mary conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee!
If Mary conceived without sin, then we have to assume her parents also sinless people , if her parents are sinless then Mary’s grandparents also sinless ………
Celestina… r u christian or catholic?
Rgds
In support of my post 1105, the Lord showed me this Message a few minutes ago.
‘..today again I cry out from Heaven;
” brothers, why are you undermining My Divinity? if you claim that you are the ones who know what is right, then why is your spirit plundering My Church ?
I AM inviting you to reign with Me…I AM inviting you to celebrate Mass and partake of the Divine Mystery in the manner I truly initiated;”
I AM present in My Eucharist, but unless they see My Divinity with spiritual eyes, they will continue to be like a drowsing man who never grasp anything you tell him…
..kingly and glorious these churches proclaim Me, they affirm My Might proclaiming My fearful power, singing their praises to Me, acknowledging My Omnipotence and My mighty wonders, but I become a stumbling stone when it comes to measure the magnificence of My Divinity and of My Presence in the Eucharist;
..today this is the stumbling stone rejected by the builders and they do not realise it is the keystone…soon I shall let the dragon eat its own tail…
..I will re-erect My Eucharist in the houses that have been despoiled of My Presence and they shall become holy….you have been pillaged from My Sovereignty, razed to the ground by the dragon, yet, I tell you, I tell you all:
My Spirit will be poured out on the earth to drench it with the dew of heaven, and the grass of the earth will be greener, and the trees will bloom and their foliage will be beautiful and their fruit abundant….’
( 16.10.2000 )
The message to ALL protestant denominations is clear.
Re-erect the Eucharist in your Holy Communion – bring back Transubstantiation
The Lord’s Message in post 1122 is taken from True Life in God – message of 16.10.2000.
Transubstantiation. What do the RCC mean by that phrase? Do they mean that Christ is present in the eucharist? well how can we detect the presence of God in bread and wine?
Does the bread and wine still rot? still taste, look and react exactly like bread and wine? Is it in any way changed physically? Of course not, even the RCC admits that.
So if the bread and wine are physically the same as before and will the stay the same afterwards what can we understand from the words of Jesus regarding the eucharist?
“This is my body, broken for you” Did Jesus mean that the bread they could see was actually part of his body? that the wine had become blood?
Well when talking of the wine, and after saying it was his blood, Jesus said it was “the fruit of the vine” so he didn’t think it wasn’t wine any more did he?
Now we have a little technical problem so bear with me why I explain how it shows that the RCC doesn’t believe what it says.
The RCC claims that transubstatiation is participation in the sacrifice of Christ on the cross so, they say, Christ is not crucified again but they are partaking in the one sacrifice when they have their eucharist.
So what do we know about the original sacrifice? Well it was a sacrifice that involved the shedding of blood, in theological terms this is called a “bloody sacrifice” as opposed to an “unbloody sacrifice” where no blood is shed.
So what kind was the cross? A bloody sacrifice. So, if the RCC believes that the eucharist is that selfsame sacrifice then it must be a bloody sacrifice? (Still with me?)
But what does the RCC teach about the eucharist?
It says that it is doing what Christ did at the Last Supper. BUT there was no sacrifice at the Last Supper, no blood was shed at the Last Supper. So since there was no blood shed there cannot have been a true sacrifice at the Last Supper. Therefore if the Priest is making a sacrifice he is doing something other than that which Christ did at the Last Supper.
So the RCC is doubly confused, it says it offers a sacrifice for sins by repeating an event where no sacrifice for sins took place. Not only that it admits that the eucharist is an unbloody sacrfice and yet claims it can forgive sin but without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
Transubstantiation is an invention of the RCC, it had people killed for not believing in it and yet until 1215 it didn’t even form part of the RCCs Articles of Faith!
Why would we believe what the RCC didn’t and which makes no sense and in which the RCC contradicts itself?
regards
Phil
@Babu,
Yes, am a Christian, but am proud to be a Catholic..
And finally I would like to say, if people don’t want to accept simple truths and wish to be ignorant, then yes, no amount of explanation would help, and also there wouldn’t be any dearth of excuses given to us.. As is given in the Bible Mt 7:6-“Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you.” So in the same way as no amount of understanding would make you understand, its better to leave you guys alone. ANd as is given in the Bible in the book of Romans 14:13 “Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother.” and in the Gospel, “Woe to those who prove to be a stumbling block in the faith of others”, so its better you guys don’t question our faith and belief, because history is proof that the Protestants broke away from the catholic church, and that they themselves now a like a divided house.. These things require common sense to understand, not rocket science…
By their righteous lives Joachim and Anna please God so much that He considered them worthy enough to be the parents of the Most Holy Virgin, the fore-ordained Mother of the Lord. From only this it is clear that their life was holy, God-pleasing, and pure, for from them was born the Daughter, Holiest of all the saints, pleasing to God more than all the others, and more honorable than the Cherubim. There were on the earth at that time no people more pleasing to God by their pure lives, than Joachim and Anna. Although at the time it was possible to find many living righteously and pleasing to God, these two surpassed all others by their virtues and appeared before God as the most worthy to bear the Mother of God. Such mercy would not have been granted to them by God, if they did not indeed surpass all others in righteousness and holiness. But since the Lord Himself had to be incarnated of a Most Holy and Most Pure Mother, it was likewise fitting that the Mother of God descend from holy and pure parents. Just as earthly kings have their purples made, not from plain material, but gold-brocaded, so also did the Heavenly King wish to have His Most Pure Mother, in the body of which, as in a royal purple, He was to clothe Himself, born not of ordinary incontinent parents, as of plain material, but of chaste and holy ones, as of gold-brocaded material, the type of which was the Old Testament tabernacle, which God ordered Moses to construct of crimson and scarlet material and of fine linen. (Exodus 27:16) “And for the gate of the court shall be an hanging of twenty cubits, of blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen, wrought with needlework: and their pillars shall be four, and their sockets four.” This tabernacle prefigured the Virgin Mary, taking up His abode in Whom, God came to “live with men”, as it is written: “behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them (Rev. 21:3).” The crimson and scarlet material and the linen from which the tabernacle was made, prefigured the parents of the Mother of God, Who was descended from and born of chastity and continence, as of crimson and scarlet raiment, and of their perfection in the fulfillment of every commandment of God, as of fine linen. But these holy spouses were, by the will of God, childless for a long time – in order that in the conception and birth of such a daughter would be manifested the power of the grace of God, as well as the honor of the One Born, and the worthiness of the parents: for it is impossible for a barren and aged woman to bear in any other way but by the power of the grace of God; here nature is no longer active, but God Who overcomes the laws of nature and destroys the bonds of barrenness. To be born of barren and aged parents is a great honor to the One Born as well, because She is born not of incontinent parents but of continent and aged ones, such as were Joachim and Anna, who lived fifty years in marriage and had no children. Finally, through such a birth the worthiness of the parents themselves is also revealed, since they, after a long barrenness, gave birth to the joy of all the world, in such a way likened to the patriarch Abraham and his devout wife Sarah, who by the promise of God bore Isaac in old age (Genesis 21:2) “For Sarah conceived, and bare Abraham a son in his old age, at the set time of which God had spoken to him.” However, it can be said without doubt that the nativity of the Mother of God was superior to the birth of Isaac to Abraham and Sarah. As much as the Virgin Mary is Herself born above and more worthy of honor than Isaac, so likewise are Joachim and Anna greater and higher in worthiness than Abraham and Sarah. They did not achieve that virtue all at once but only after they had prayed to God for this with diligent fasting and prayer, in mental sorrow and with grieving hearts: and their grief was turned into joy, while their disgrace appeared as the herald of a great honor, their assiduous petition appeared as a guidance for the receiving of blessings, and their prayer as the best intercession.
Joachim and Anna were sorrowful and wept long over their childlessness. Once, on a great feastday, Joachim was bringing gifts to the Lord God in the temple of Jerusalem; together with Joachim all of the Israelites were also bringing their gifts in offering to God. Issachar, who was the high priest at that time, did not want to accept the offerings of Joachim because he was without children.
“Your gifts,” he said, “must not be accepted because you do not have children, and hence, do not have the blessing of God: most likely you have some secret sins.”
Likewise, a Hebrew from the tribe of Reuben, bringing his gifts together with the others, reproached Joachim, saying:
Why do you want to bring sacrifices to God before Me? Do you not know that you are not worthy to bring gifts together with us, since you know no descent in Israel?”
Yet to the patriarchs of the Israelite nation had repeatedly been given by God the promise of the multiplying of their descendants; therefore, the Israelites regarded a multitudinous posterity as the highest fortune and blessing of God. On the other hand, by the ancient promise of God, the Israelites hoped to find among their descendants the “seed of the woman” promised by God, the Messiah. This is why among the Hebrews childlessness was considered as a terrible misfortune and punishment for sins, and the people who did not have children the Hebrews regarded as great sinners. These reproaches grieved Joachim very much, and he with great sorrow left the temple of God disgraced and humiliated, and the feastday turned into grief for him, while the festal joy changed into sorrow. Deeply sorrowing, he did not return home, but departed into the desert to the shepherds, tending their flocks, and wept there over his infertility and over the abuses and reproaches made against him. Having remembered Abraham, his forefather, to whom in extreme old age God granted a son, Joachim began diligently praying to the Lord that he also be honored with such benevolence, that He hear his prayer, have mercy on him, and take away from him the abuses of the people, that He grant him in old age the fruit of his marriage, as was done at one time to Abraham.
“May I have,” he prayed, “the possibility of being called the father of a child, and not childless and rejected by God to suffer the reproaches of the people.”
Joachim added a fast to this prayer and for forty days did not partake of bread.
“I will not eat,” he said, “and will not return to my home; let my tears be my nourishment, and the desert my home, until the Lord God of Israel hearkens and takes this defamation away from me”
In the very same way his wife also, being at home and hearing that the high priest, reproaching them for barrenness, did not want to accept their gifts, and that her husband from great sorrow had withdrawn into the desert, wept with inconsolable tears.
“Now,” she said, “I am the most unfortunate of all: rejected by God, reviled among the people, and forsaken by my husband! Over what shall I weep now: over my widowhood, or my childlessness, or my orphanhood, of over the fact that I was not found worthy to be called a mother!”
In this way she wept bitterly all those days.
A servant of Anna, by the name of Judith, tried to comfort her but could not: for who can console one whose grief is as deep as the sea?
Once the sorrowful Anna went into the garden, sat under a laurel tree, sighed from the depth of her heart, and lifting her tear-filled eyes toward heaven, noticed a bird’s nest on the tree with tiny birds in it. This sight imbued her heart with even greater sorrow, and she with weeping began to call out:
“Woe to me who am childless! It is probably because I am the most sinful among all the daughters of Israel, that I am the only one among all the women to be so humbled. All of them carry the fruit of their wombs in their arms; all of them are comforted by their children; I am the only one alien to this joy. Woe is me! The gifts of all are accepted in the temple of God, and for their child-bearing respect is shown to them; I am the only one rejected from the temple of my Lord. Woe is me! With whom can I compare myself? Not with the birds of the sky, not with the animals of the earth; for they too bring their fruit to Thee, Lord God; only I am barren. I cannot compare myself even with the earth; for it vegetates and raises the seeds, and bringing forth fruits, blesses Thee, the Heavenly Father; only I am without fruit on the earth. Alas, for me, Lord, Lord! Only I, a sinner, am deprived of posterity. Thou who once granted a son Isaac to Sarah in deep old age (Genesis 21:1-8):
And the LORD visited Sarah as he had said, and the LORD did unto Sarah as he had spoken. For Sarah conceived, and bare Abraham a son in his old age, at the set time of which God had spoken to him. And Abraham called the name of his son that was born unto him, whom Sarah bare to him, Isaac. And Abraham circumcised his son Isaac being eight days old, as God had commanded him. And Abraham was an hundred years old, when his son Isaac was born unto him. And Sarah said, God hath made me to laugh, so that all that hear will laugh with me. And she said, Who would have said unto Abraham, that Sarah should have given children suck? for I have born him a son in his old age. And the child grew, and was weaned: and Abraham made a great feast the same day that Isaac was weaned.
Thou Who opened the womb of Hannah, the mother of Thy prophet Samuel (1 Samuel 1:11, 20; 1 Kings 1:11, 20 in Septuagint),
And she was in bitterness of soul, and prayed unto the LORD, and wept sore. And she vowed a vow, and said, O LORD of hosts, if thou wilt indeed look on the affliction of thine handmaid, and remember me, and not forget thine handmaid, but wilt give unto thine handmaid a man child, then I will give him unto the LORD all the days of his life, and there shall no razor come upon his head… Wherefore it came to pass, when the time was come about after Hannah had conceived, that she bare a son, and called his name Samuel, saying, Because I have asked him of the LORD.
Look upon me today and hear my prayers. Lord Sabaoth! Thou knowest the disgrace of childlessness; put an end to the sorrow of my heart and open my womb and make me who am barren fruit-bearing, so that we may bring the one born of me as a gift to Thee, blessing, lauding, and in accordance glorifying Thy mercy.”
While Anna was exclaiming in this way with weeping and wailing, an angel of the Lord appeared to her and said:
“Anna, Anna! Your prayer has been heard; your sighings have penetrated through to the clouds; your tears have appeared before God; and you shall conceive and bear a most blessed Daughter; through Her all the tribes of the earth shall receive a blessing and to all the world shall be granted salvation; her name shall be Mary.”
Hearing the words of the angel, Anna bowed down to God and said:
“As the Lord God lives, if a child is born to me, I shall offer it for service to God. Let it serve Him and glorify the holy name of God day and night all the time if its life.”
Following this, having been filled with unspeakable joy, the holy Anna quickly went to Jerusalem in order there to give prayerful thanksgiving to God for His merciful visitation.
At the same time the Angel also appeared to Joachim in the desert and said:
“Joachim, Joachim! God has herd your prayer and it well-pleases Him to grant you His grace; your wife Anna shall conceive and bear you a Daughter, the birth of Whom shall be the joy of the entire world. And here is a sign for you that I am announcing the truth to you: go to Jerusalem to the temple of God and there, at the golden gates, you shall find your wife Anna to whom I have announced the same.”
Joachim, surprised by such good news of the angel, doxologizing God and thanking Him with heart and lips for the great mercy, hastily departed with joy and gladness for the temple of Jerusalem. There, just as the Angel had announced to him, he found Anna at the golden gates, praying to God, and he told her of the glad tidings of the angel. She likewise revealed how she had seen and heard an angel, announcing the birth of a daughter to her. Then Joachim and Anna Glorified God Who had done such a great kindness for them, and having worshipped Him in the holy temple, they returned to their home.
And holy Anna conceived on the ninth day of the month of December, while on the eighth of September she gave birth to a Daughter, the Most Pure and Most Blessed Virgin Mary, the Beginning and Intercessor of our salvation, over Whose birth both heaven and earth rejoiced. Joachim, on the occasion of Her birth, brought valuable gifts, sacrifices, and burnt offerings to God, and received the blessing of the high priest, the priests, the levites, and all the people, for having been vouchsafed the blessing of God. He later gave a banquet in his home, and all glorified God with gladness.
The parents took care of the growing Virgin Mary as the apple of their eye, knowing, by the special revelation of God, that She would be a light to all the world and the renewal of human nature. For this reason they brought Her up with such careful circumspection, as was proper for the One Who was to be the Mother of our Savior. They loved Her not only as their daughter as long awaited, but revered Her as their lady, remembering the angelic words concerning Her and foreseeing through the spirit what was to be accomplished through Her. Being filled with divine grace, She mystically enriched Her parents with that grace as well. As the sun illuminates with its rays the heavenly bodies so also the divinely-chosen Mary, like the sun, illuminated Joachim and Anna with the rays of the grace given to Her, so that they too were filled with the Spirit of God, and firmly believed in the fulfillment of the angel’s words.
When the child Mary reached the age of three, Her parents led Her with glory into the temple of the Lord, accompanying Her with lighted lamps, and consecrated Her to the service of God, as they had promised. After the passing of several years following the presentation of May into the temple, holy Joachim died, eighty years from his birth. Holy Anna, having become a widow, left Nazareth and came to Jerusalem, where she stayed with her Most Holy Daughter, praying unceasingly in the temple of God. Having lived in Jerusalem for two years, she reposed in the Lord, 79 years following her birth. The Church commemorates the passing of the righteous Anna on the 25th of July.
O, How blessed are you, holy parents, Joachim and Anna, for the sake of your Most Blessed Daughter! Greatly blessed are you for the sake of Her Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, through Whom all the nations and tribes of the earth have received a blessing! The Holy Church has justly named you Ancestors of God, for we know that from your Most Holy Daughter God was born. Standing near to Him in heaven today, pray that at least a certain portion of your never-ending joy will be imparted to us. Amen. )
@Ralph
Do you know the meaning of Christian as per Bible?
I like your comment
“These things require common sense to understand, not rocket science”
Bible saying ONLY one Mediator and One God. The Mediator is Jesus.
To understand this you dont need to study rocket science!
Rgds
“I have stressed always in my posts that the Orgin of the Bible is from the Catholic Church/Apostles and their appointed Head of Church, viz., The Pope. The Bible 4-gospels was written 4-languages for different regions. So translation are to the nearest, and not exact, which you can see as you read this post.”
This is simply wrong historically. The canon of scripture existed before anyone had been called “Pope” in fact it existed in various churches throughout the Christian world. What the church did when it finalised the canon was to agree which books had always been accepted as scripture. To establish this they checked with the churches and the fathers so see which books they used and quoted as authorities. So the church (not the Roman Church) agreed the canon but the canon was not written by the church nor was any part of it written under the authority of the Roman Chruch or any other one church. The books of the OT Canon predate the church by thousands of years and so in now way was the church involved in choosing them other than to agree to exclude some books which had always been given a lesser status by Jews and Christians.
“This is a pretty long mail, but take time to understand and not just read through and post 1 verse question…..
It is a curious fact that some seem to have a major problem with the Virgin Mary. It is a problem that goes far beyond theological reason and debate. In some quarters there seems to be a major antipathy, almost hatred, directed at one of the key figures in the story of redemption. In fact a few protestant apologists write of the Mother of the Redeemer almost as if she were the enemy of God. How can this unhealthy state of affairs have come about?”
Again this is simply wrong. No Protestant writers were anti Mary nor did they write anything negative about her. What they were aginist were the various heresies that the RCC was teaching then about Mary, and which have since been added to by the RCC
“Perhaps it has something to do with the misogynistic tendencies that were evident in many of the Reformers, although most actually maintained Marian doctrines that would surprise their modern-day followers. There is also a great deal of ignorance among modern-day protestants as to the Scriptural and other ancient support for most of the Marian doctrines. It is the fundamentalist move away from Mary that has been the recent aberation. Yet even many Protestant Christians who are not so extreme still believe that Catholic and Orthodox doctrines on the Virgin Mary are unscriptural and are inventions of the Medieval Church, being unknown to the early Christians.”
The most misogynistic group would be the RCC which has an all male heirarchy. Nevertheless for nearly all the claims about Mary there is zero scriptural support and indeed very little from the fathers. Especially when one looks at their comments in context. For example I say Mary was blessed, indeed all generations should say that she was. But blessed means that God blessed her, not that she had some inate holy quality which is how the RCC tries to apply that verse.”
“How true is this?
To find out, we must examine the doctrines about the Virgin Mary which Evangelical Protestants claim to be unscriptural
1. Mary is the Mother if God
2. Mary is the Mother of All Christians
3. Mary’s Bodily Assumption into Heaven
4. Mary Queen of Heaven
5.The Immaculate Conception
6. Mediatrix
7. Ever Virgin”
Those are certainly some of them.
“1. Mary is the Mother of God
This is quite simply explained. The main puzzle is why any Christian should object to this title. All Christians believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and also IS God, being the 2nd Person of the Trinity, along with the Father and the Holy Spirit. Jesus is also the son of Mary. Now many Protestants are quite prepared to say “Mary, Mother of Jesus,†but balk at saying “Mary, Mother of God.†Why?
There is probably an element of cultural conditioning here. Giving Mary such a title seems too grand to many protestants. For centuries most protestants have tried to ignore Mary, and have avoided all talk and discussion of her – except perhaps to condemn Catholic “excessesâ€. But this is a serious matter. To call Mary the “Mother of Jesus†and yet refuse to call her “Mother of God†is to diminish Jesus as well as Mary, for it is a denial that Jesus is truly or fully God.
It was this sort of thinking that led to the formal definition of the title Mother of God at the Council of Ephesus in 431AD. Patriarch Nestorius had preached that Mary was not Mother of God, being only the mother of Jesus’s physical body, which was then indwelt by God the Word. This was condemned as Heresy, since the Gospels tell us that the Word did not unite with man, but was made man. The Word became flesh and dwelt among us..†(John 1.14). This is a crucial difference. Jesus was not two persons: the Son of God, and the Son of Mary, but one person, the Son of God and Mary. If this were not so, his death could not have saved us.”
I wont bore the reader with dealing with the silly bits but Mary was the Mother of Jesus, Mary was not the mother of the God although she did give birth to Jesus.
I shall explain the difference. We are all sons of God if we do as Jesus commands (Jesus said that) but we are not “The Son of God”. One of them is a description of a standing we have with God and another is a claim about deity. Mary was most certainly Jesus’ mother and in that sense she was the mother of God. But the RCC goes much further and makes that a position, a title, a status in the same way that “The Son of God” is a title and status and that is where they err. If they were to stop making such false claims then the Protestants would be happy to acknowledge Mary as the mother of God (in the person of Jesus) but since we know that is not what they mean by the phrase we cannot agree to their use of the term which is loaded with other additions.”
“THE NATURE OF JESUS
1. To be our Saviour, Jesus needed to be both fully God, and fully man, descended from Adam. He could not be a counterfeit, or someone who just looked human..
2. God the Word has existed as spirit from the beginning of time.
3. At the Incarnation, through the action of the Holy Spirit, God the Word took flesh and full humanity from the Virgin Mary. Both His Human Nature and His human body came from Mary, These united with His Divine Nature in Jesus.”
Er no. The human nature of Jesus no more came from Mary that it did from me. Our nature (our soul if you will) comes from God as the scripture says.
“4. This produced one person with one consciousness, both fully God and fully man, who is truly both Son of God and Son of Mary.”
Agreed. He is a son of Mary and The Son of God. Just as he is also a son of Adam and a son of Abraham.
“5. The Virgin Mary is therefore the Mother of ALL of the PERSON of Jesus Christ, and is therefore truly Mother of God the Son.”
Well no. The Word which is God the Son predated Mary (which you already agreed) therefore she is the mother of Jesus and the mother of God in the person of Jesus.”
“Nestorius did not recant, and founded his own church – which is no longer with us. In effect, in saying that Mary was the Mother of Jesus, but not the Mother of God, he was denying the reality of the incarnation. Attempts to downgrade Mary seem always lead to a downgrading of the full divinity of Jesus.
BUT DOESN’T CONCENTRATING ON THE VIRGIN MARY DISTRACT US FROM GOD AND FROM JESUS?
This is a common complaint of Protestants, but one I really fail to understand.”
Perhaps I should state it more simply then. Every time you pray to Mary, worship Mary, or encourage others to do so you are preventing prayers and worship being made to God.
“Does admiring any part of God’s creation distract you from God? When you walk through a forest of tall, ancient trees and you admire their beauty, does it distract you from God? When you look at a sunset or a towering mountain, does that turn you away from God? Of course not. For most people such things draw them closer to God.”
Indeed they are often a distraction, people are not drawn to God by trees or streams or sunsets. The bible teaches us that it is the Love of God that draws us to Him.
“Similarly when you admire people like St Francis, Mother Theresa, or other Christians who have given up their lives to serve God. Does that make you turn away from God – or is it more likely to make you think of the greatness of the God who inspired such people? So it is also with Mary.”
There is a difference between being encouraged by the fact that God can use anyone to fulfil His plans and worshipping the donkey that carried Jesus.
“2. Mary is the Mother of All Christians
An evangelical Christian once retorted indignantly to me “Mary isn’t my Mother.†To which I was forced to respond. “Then what you’re really saying is that Jesus is not your Brother.†And in truth it is as simple as that. If we as Christians are brothers of Jesus, then, as with Jesus, God is our Father and Mary is our Mother.”
I hope that the evangelical just laughed at you and opened the bible to prove you wrong! Jesus is not my natural brother, I was adopted. I am an adopted son and therefore since I never met Mary and she has been dead a long ole time she is not my mother or even adopted mother. Men and Women who come to Christ become adopted sons in Christ. We cry “Abba Father” we do not cry to a mother. Just as Joseph was not Jesus’ father because he was an adopted son in Joseph’s case then Mary is not my mother.
“The bible also teaches, that all Christians become part of the body of Christ. Again this re-emphasises the fact that as Christians become one with Jesus they share with Him, the Fatherhood of God and also, the motherhood of Mary.”
We are the body of Christ by adoption. We don’t have mother because God adopted us not Mary, nor could she adopt us being long dead.
“The New Testament has two further passages which confirm Mary’s motherhood of Christians:
John 19.25: Near the cross of Jesus, stood his mother, his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas and Mary Magdalene. 26 When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing near by, he said to his mother, “Dear woman, here is your son,†27 and to the disciple, “Here is your mother.†From that time on the disciple took her into his home.
This is not just a personal bequest of his Mother to John, but, being from the cross itself, has a greater significance. First of all, if Jesus were merely asking John to take care of Mary, He would have made His first request to John. But if you look at the passage, you will see that His first statement is to Mary. The emphasis is therefore upon Mary being Mother to John, not John “looking after†Mary. John here represents all the disciples of Jesus, and hence all Christians, who are given Mary as their Mother.”
This is a verse oft abused and misunderstood by RCs. Mary was looking at Jesus and Jesus said, indicating John “woman behold your son” this is because in the economy of God her son was being taken from her so God who blesses richly replaced the son she was losing through death with another. The same happened to Job. He lost children but was given more children in replacement. John was Mary’s son from that moment on and John was told “behold your mother. It was not directed at the disciples, nor at the leader of the disciples but at just one disciple. This shows the mercy and justice of God. It doesn’t make Mary anyoner else’s mother and she is never called that in the entire NT. Therefore since nobody calls her mother of anyone other than Jesus we must take what the bible says and not what someone imagined.
“Revelation 12.17: Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring – those who obey God’s commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
This passage shows the Dragon (Satan), making war on the Woman (Mary)’s offspring, following the birth of Jesus. (see Queen of Heaven for more on Revelation 12) These offspring, clearly represent the community of Christians, who are “the rest of†Mary’s children.”
So who is the woman? 3 things need to be looked at and first is the context, the second is the type of writing in which the phrase occurs and the thrid is what, if any, biblical type may be applied.
Context
Here is the context
“1 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. 4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born. 5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.â€[a] And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6 The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.
7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.”
Next, what kind of writing is Revelation? It is apocryphal and it uses non literal images to explain spiritual truth.
What biblical types, if any, may be applied?
Well
There is a dragon, and the text tells us this is the devil
There is a woman with 12 stars, the text doesn’t say who the woman is
The dragon is thrown out of heaven
The child is clearly Jesus
After the child is taken up to Heaven then the Woman goes in to the wilderness
Stars, in scripture, refer to either heavenly or earthly peoples. The Morning Star, etc etc But there is only one vision that can be used as a type for 12 stars because 12 stars occurs there and there only apart from in this passage.
Here is the passage
Gen 37:9 “Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. “Listen,†he said, “I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.â€
Here we have 12 stars, the moon and the sun exactly what we have here. The 12 stars in this passage became the 12 tribes of Israel. So we can reasonably conclude that Israel is referred to here by exactly the same terms. Indeed Israel is often likened to a woman, Israel certainly entered in to a wilderness after Jesus ascended to heaven. Israel has certainly been pursued and attacked by the devil many times and Michael the archangel refered to always represents Israel, indeed it was he who fought with Satan for the body of Moses.
“HERE TOO TYPOLOGY COMES TO OUR AID.
The Old Testament contains many “Types†or precursors of New Testament figures or events. Adam is accepted as a “type†of Jesus, who is sometimes called “the 2nd Adamâ€. Adam, as the first man, sinned, and brought death to all. Jesus, as the second Adam, did not sin, and brought life. So too as Eve brought death to us through disobedience, †Mary as “the Second Eveâ€, brought life through her obedience. So how is the first Eve described?
Gen 2:20: “The man called his wife’s name Eve because she was the mother of all living.â€
And so the Second Eve became the mother of all who live in Christ.”
Nothing in that typology refers to what is said in Revelation, and your comments are incorrect. Jesus is the “Last Adam” not the second Adam. Adam was the first and Jesus was the last. I had better explain that. The first is always the flesh and the second is always the spiritual. The Old Covenant was about controlling the externals (flesh) the second covenant is about spiritual birth. So Adam was the fleshly progenitor of all the living. Jesus is the spirital progenitor of all the spiritually alive.
Gen 2:23 Adam called her the mother of all living before she sinned. This is because she was de facto the progenitor of all the living people, that followed.
So the text in Revelation doesn’t refer to Mary, doesn’t fit Mary and cannot be Mary. It is Israel, in to which all the faithful have been grafted as the scriptures say. The text fits, the context fits and the typology fits.
“3. Mary’s Bodily Assumption into Heaven
I find it strange that Protestant Evangelicals never seem to wonder where Mary is now, or what her role might be. If they do chance to wonder, they generally keep it to themselves. Raise too many of the wrong topics, and questions may start being asked about whether you really are “one of the groupâ€. Therefore it is quite common for Protestant evangelicals who are quite certain that Uncle Fred is in heaven, wearing his kingly crown, or that they themselves are heaven bound, to question Mary’s presence there.”
Do you find it strange? I am surprised because up until 1950 Roman Catholics wondered about it. Indeed it was perfectly acceptable for them to do so. But in 1951 it no longer was because that was when the RCC added the last dogma of Mary’s Assumption. It is now a sin to question what was ok to question in 1950!
“So, let’s scotch that one straight away. If the Virgin Mary isn’t in heaven, then there’s very little chance that anyone else will ever get there. Mary is the supreme example, or prototype, of what happens to a person who fully places trust and faith in God. Everything we hope to become in Christ, She already is. . Out of the millions of “decisions†made for Christ, Mary’s was the first. Therefore, whatever promises the Holy Scriptures hold for us, Mary already possesses.”
Mary was not the first Christian, indeed she is is never said to be, a Christian is a disciple of Jesus. Jesus chose 12 and then 70 disciples, none of them was Mary. So your claim does not have the backing of scripture.
My personal opinion is Mary, like all the saints, is in timeline wise waiting for judgement day but in eternal terms she is there now where she will be admitted to the kingdom along with a vast multitude that no man can number.
“BUT WHY DO PEOPLE SAY THAT MARY WAS TAKEN BODILY TO HEAVEN – IT’S NOT WRITTEN IN THE BIBLE?
The problem with showing Mary’s Assumption, (or the deaths of Mary or most of the Apostles, for that matter), in the Bible, is that the Gospel record ends before any of these events occurred. The Assumption is, however, implicit in Revelation Chapter 12 (see Queen of Heaven).”
The reason you believe the dcotrine is cos the Pope decided it in 1951 when it was added to RCC dogma.
The gospels themselves and Paul’s letters were written, in the main, after the death of Mary. I say this because if she 16 when she gave birth then she would have been 86 when the first of Paul’s letters was written and considerably older by the time Peter was written since he was then “aged” himself. People just didn’t live that long in 1st Century Palestine. Nor does she get a mention in any of the later letters.
“Mary’s Bodily Assumption is also a long-standing teaching of the Ancient Churches. The celebratory festival in August dates from at least the 400s in Palestine, and had reached Gaul by the 500s. The setting of a Festival Day for a doctrine is evidence not only of a strong and almost universally-held belief in that doctrine, but also of a long-standing belief – since it is rare for Festival to be celebrated for a belief or incident for which there is not some long attestation. As a comparison, the date of December the 25th for the celebration of Christmas was set only in 354 AD by Pope Julius I.”
There were many heresies abroad by the end of the 3rd century. This is but one.
“Early references to the Assumption of Mary include Timothy of Jerusalem in around 380 AD, who wrote: “Wherefore the Virgin is immortal up to now, because He who dwelt in her took her to the regions of the Ascension,â€
Gregory of Tours in 580 wrote: “Mary, the glorious Mother of Christ, who, we believe, was a virgin before and after childbirth, was, as we have said before, carried to Paradise preceded by the Lord amidst the singing of angelic choirs.â€
Apocryphal writings detailing the Assumption have been dated back to the 200s. Although other early references are few, the fact that the Celebration of Mary’s Assumption into Heaven was not opposed in what was a highly disputatious age, argues strongly for a general acceptance and belief in the doctrine.”
Sadly the last sentence is just untrue, it has no basis in fact. The earliest document of any kind that supports the assumption of Mary may have been written in the 4th century, but we cannot tell. However we do have an earlier attestation that nobody knew if she had died or not :-)
Saint Epiphanius of Salamis said nobody knew if she were dead or not in 377ad so it obviously was not universally held that she had died let alone that she had been assumed in to heaven.
“BUT ISN’T IT WRONG TO SAY THAT ANYONE BUT JESUS ASCENDED INTO HEAVEN? THAT IS HIS PRIVELEGE ALONE.
This point is quite often made by Protestant apologists. But they are mistaken. The Old Testament tells us that both Enoch and Elijah were assumed (taken) bodily into heaven. So Mary’s Assumption, far from being unbiblical, in fact follows a strong Biblical pattern. Furthermore, it appears from the New Testament, (Jude 9), that Moses too may have been assumed into heaven, even though no record of this appears anywhere in the Old Testament. This, incidentally, provides a biblical record of an important teaching that was passed down over an extremely long period purely by Oral Tradition.”
It is wrong to claim someonething is true when you have no evidence. You have none. It is wrong to make it a matter of dogma when there is no evidence. There is none.
“ISN’T MARY’S ASSUMPTION A NEW DOCTRINE?
No. As we have already seen, it is a very old belief in the Church. What happened in 1950 was that the Pope “defined†it as a Catholic dogma. This did not make it a new doctrine – it simply reinforced its status.”
Not true. The Pope defined the doctrine in 1951 and since that time no RC may not believe it, on pain of excommunication. Thats a bit serious!
“The fact that the Christian Community has believed from the earliest days that Mary was taken bodily into heaven can also be proved from the fact that no-one ever claimed to have her relics.”
Or it could be good evidence that the church early on didn’t treat her like the RCCs imply and thus artifacts about her would have little value
“From the times of the persecutions, relics of the Saints had an immense value. Christians would often risk their lives to collect the remains of martyrs from the Arena and preserve their relics. In later days, having the body of a holy Saint in your church could make your city wealthy. St Peter’s body has the greatest church in the world built on top of it. Thomas a Becket drew enormous pilgrim crowds to Canterbury. St James drew millions to Compostella. Any Church or city that could have claimed to hold Mary’s body, or even a single bone from her finger would have at once become one of the richest and most popular places of pilgrimage in the world. In fact about 400 AD the Emperor Marcian asked the Patriarch of Jerusalem to bring the relics of Mary to Constantinople to be enshrined in the capitol. He was informed that there were no relics of Mary.”
So your proof of one superstition is another superstition?
“So valuable were relics that many were accused of fraudulently manufacturing them just to draw pilgrims and create wealth. Yet from the earliest days no-one has claimed to have the body of the Virgin Mary – or even as much as a single small bone. Why not? Because her body was hard to find? Not really. Plenty claimed to own part of the True Cross or even the Crown of Thorns. So why did no-one claim to have Mary’s body? There is one reason. Quite simply because no-one would have believed them. From the earliest days of the Church everyone KNEW that Mary’s body was not on earth. Every Christian knew that she had been assumed bodily into heaven. If there had been room for any argument about that fact, if there had been room for the slightest doubt, then some church somewhere would have claimed to have had Mary’s body.”
No reference before the 4th century. It was questioned whether she had even died though. Not much room for relics if she didn’t is there?
“4. Mary Queen of Heaven
Another doctrine many Protestants object to is that Mary is the Queen of Heaven. So what Biblical justification is there for this?”
None whatsoever as you will now show :-)
“Rev 12: 1-5: A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. Then another sign appeared in heaven; an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads. His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth so that he might devour her child the moment it was born. She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron sceptre. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.
Here is a Bible passage that shows Mary crowned in heaven. She wears a heavenly crown of twelve stars. A crown plainly denotes Queenship. How much more clearly could Mary’s honour be illustrated?”
Already cleared that one up :-)
“BUT THERE ARE OTHER INTERPRETATIONS OF THIS PASSAGE. THE WOMAN MAY NOT BE MARY.
I once read this passage to a group of born-again fundamentalists who had not been pre-prepared with an acceptable Protestant “interpretationâ€. Their reaction? A shocked “but that’s Mary!†It was quite obvious to all of them.”
They must have especially stupid to think that Mary was in the wilderness after Jesus was ascended and that the devil stood infront of Mary waiting to eat Jesus when he came out!
“However Protestant Bible scholars, realising the implications of recognising the figure here to be Mary often simply just deny it. For some reason fundamentalist Protestants looking for a female image in Revelation, prefer the scarlet woman of Revelation 17. Revelation 12 makes them squirm, and they strain to find another interpretation. The main two are:
1. The Woman in this Passage represents the Church. The twelve stars are the twelve Apostles.
2. The Woman represents Israel. The stars are the twelve tribes.
BOTH INTERPRETATIONS SUFFER FROM SEVERAL MAJOR FLAWS.
1st. If the Woman is taken to represent the Church, then we face the immediate paradox of the Church giving birth to Jesus! This is clearly nonsense.”
I quite agree.
“2nd If the Woman is taken as Israel, we have an exalted Israel. Yet Israel was not exalted at the time of Jesus’s birth. Most of Israel was astray.”
Er no. The woman is not exalted, this is a sign. Now a sign is something that isnt the thing it is showing. A sign indicates something else. The crowds asked for a sign as proof of who Jesus was. So the sign pointed to the fact that Jesus was who he claimed. If the sign is a woman then clearly a woman is not what the sign is pointing to. A stop sign doesn’t tell you to stop at the sign, it indicates a place on the road junction where you have to stop. Anyway I have already clearly shown that the woman is Israel.
“3rd. Neither interpretation is a simple, literal reading of the text. If Protestant scholars have agreed on one thing it is that we must look for the clear, obvious interpretation of a bible text. Who is the woman who gave birth to Jesus? Jesus’s Mother. Simple.”
Well if we want simple then why did none of the narratives mention the 12 stars arounds Mary’s head and the fact that she was clothed with the sun and moon was under her feet when she gave birth? How did they fail to spot that terrible dragon waiting in front of Mary to eat Jesus? The reason is that all of those things are not literal. It wasn’t a dragon the text says so, it was Satan.
“4th. Both alternative interpretations are contextually wrong. For all the other figures in this passage represent individuals, not ideas or classes of people. The Child is clearly Jesus, the Dragon is clearly Satan, each star swept out of the sky is one of the rebel angels who followed Satan. Later in the passage, we find Michael and his angels, and also the Beast – the Antichrist. The Woman is the only figure in the passage who, according to some, is not the individual stated in the text, but a collective representation.”
Ha ha, nearly but you failed to spot a point, not one of the figures is who the text says they are. The child isn’t even called Jesus. The woman isn’t a woman, the dragon isn’t a dragon, the sun isn’t the sun, the moon isn’t the moon, the stars aren’t stars. Now if you could show where in the NT it is said that Mary wqas clothed with the Sun? That the moon was under her feet? That there was a dragon in the stable waiting to eat Jesus? Then you might be able to make a case. Seems everybody missed all of that.
“5th. Conversely, when Israel, Christians or the Church appear elsewhere in Revelation, they do not appear as personifications. They appear in literal form, as groups of individuals. See Rev 7.4: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel; Rev 7.9: ..a great multitude that no-one could count…; Rev 12.17: ..the rest of her offspring – those who obey God’s commandments…. Even where the Church appears as the Bride of Christ, and a female personification would be expected, we do not get one. Instead of appearing as a woman, the Church appears as a City – the new Jerusalem. Rev 21: 9-10.”
144,000 male virgin Jews? So there will no non males, no non virgins saved from among the Jews? Or is this in fact not the 12 tribes of Israel? Check the list and you will see that the 12 tribes listed in Revelation are not the 12 tribes of Israel. Reading the text is a wonderful thing. Israel, as I have shown, was previously refered to in exactly the terms used here in Revelation.
“6th. If there is any doubt as to what a symbolic personage in Revelation might represent, or if a veiled meaning is intended, that meaning is immediately explained in the text. The Lamb is defined as the Lord of Lords, the Dragon is Satan. The Heads of the Beast are Kings. However no such explanation is given with respect to the Woman, underlining that the obvious meaning is the one that is intended.”
Yep the obvious meaning, the meaning that comes from the OT quote that it is from. Every Jew knew that text, they could recite it, so they knew what it meant. Not being Jewish and not knowing your OT very well you didn’t know about it and have been misled :-(
“7th. If we look at the reference to the Sun, Moon and Stars in this passage, we can compare it with Joseph’s dream in Genesis, which so angered his brothers. In the dream the Sun, Moon and Stars represented his father, Isaac, his mother, and his eleven brothers. Together with Joseph, this gives us the total of 12 stars which appear in the Revelation vision. Since Joseph and his brothers were the forebears of Israel, the Sun, Moon and stars can indeed be taken to represent Israel. BUT in Revelation the Sun, Moon and Stars are not the subjects of the Vision. They instead form the adornments of the woman. This indicates that although the Woman is linked with Israel, she is quite clearly NOT Israel.”
Clearly the woman is Israel. Up to that point Israel as a nation did not exist. The 12 brothers are the founders of Israel. In other words Israel is adorned by the 12 tribes. The stars are the brothers, out of which Israel came.
“8th. The Woman of Revelation 12 is introduced as a great sign in Heaven. Where else in the bible can we see a Woman announced as a great sign. Look at Isaiah 7:14 “Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son.†We can see that this is exactly the same sign as in Revelation 12, confirming that the Woman in both occurences is Mary.”
Er no again. The great sign in heaven is the woman and the 12 stars and the sun and the moon. The woman is part of the sign. Is the woman in Revelation a virgin? It does not say. The Lord gave many signs in the OT and they are often refered to. His prophets were given visions and in those visions Israel was a whore, an unfaithful wife, etc etc
“THE ONE WHO FITS PERFECTLY
It is possible that there are subsidiary meanings to the figure of the Woman – as there are to some other figures in Revelation. But the obvious primary meaning – that the woman giving birth to Jesus is actually Jesus’s mother – must be accepted. The only reason that Protestant scholars fight so hard against it, is that it conflicts with their deep-seated anti-Mary bias.”
You may not be aware of this, indeed you probably are not but many Protestant groups honoured Mary a great deal. The theology of the Protestants is the theology of the early church. It is the theology of the scriptures. We say that Mary was blessed above all women, we also say that the greatest human being ever born was John the Baptist because Jesus said so.
“Subsidiary meanings then fit in and harmonise. Mary, although Mother of Jesus is also part of the church and Mother of all Christians (Rev 12:17). Hence the 12 stars representing the twelve apostles. Mary is also true Daughter of Israel and of the royal line of David. The twelve stars therefore also represent the twelve tribes of Israel. Mary thus forms a key transition, and link, between Israel and the Church. Neither of the Protestant interpretations fully links the parenthood of Jesus, the parenthood of Christians, the twelve Apostles and the twelve tribes. Only Mary fulfils all the requirements of this passage.”
The mother of Jesus is Mary, she is not my mother because I was adopted. I have a new Father, not a new mother. The link between the 12 tribes and the Chruch is Jesus Christ, who satisfied the Law and opened a new and living way to God. The stars cannot be the 12 Apostles because one of those was Judas. Your so called subsidiary meanings are predicated on your own theology. Once one realises that Mary is not your mother, not the woman in revelation and not ruling anywhere it is all shown to be silliness and the traditions of men.
“DOES THE BIBLE ENDORSE THE CONCEPT OF A HEAVENLY CROWN?
2 Tim 4:8 – Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me that day…..
James 1:12 – Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life.
1 Peter 5:4 – And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away.
Rev. 2:10 .â€..Be faithful even unto death and I will give you the crown of life.†”
Have Protestants ever argued that there is no crown? No. What silly side avenue is this then?
“A CROWN YES. BUT WHERE DOES MARY’S QUEENSHIP COME FROM?”
How do you know Mary has a crown? You are basing your argument on your own argument. If she has a crown she got it as the passages you quote show :-)
“As we have seen, a crown indicates kingship. Jesus promises crowns of Glory, Life and Righteousness to all who persevere and endure with him to the end.”
A crown does not indicate kingship. When we are given the crown of life we will not be kings of heaven. There is but one king for us.”
“This is certainly the case with Mary. And looking to Timothy, we read:
2 Timothy 2:12 – If we endure, we will also reign with Him…
This is a promise made to all who endure to the end with Christ, as Mary did. They will have a share in Jesus’s Kingship.”
Who do you think you will rule over? There will be nobody in heaven who doesn’t have the same mind as Christ and who deson’t do God’s will at all tiems. We will reign then as he does now by having total power so that we do not sin and are never tempted.
“And Mary’s Queenship has still more bases in Scripture. She was the “God-bearerâ€, and as such has a unique relationship with God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. As the first to say “Yes†to God’s plan, she is also the First Christian. She is also Mother of the Church. for as Brethren of Jesus, Christians are Children of Mary.”
She was not the first to say yes to God’s plan, I can show you many who did so before Mary was ever born. She was not the first Christian, indeed she wasn’t even a disciple. She is not the mother of the church, as we don’t have a new mother because we are adopted. She does not have a unique relationship with God.
At this point boredom set in because the poster hopes to win by repetition rather than by sense.
Each point made so far I have refuted clearly and from scripture
But I trust that the reader will see that I have used the context, the type of text and any applicable typology to show that what the RCC teaches is not what the bible teaches.
Mary was never mentioned as part of the NT church by Paul, she wasn’t ever consulted, she wasn’t asked for help and she wasn’t venerated. If all that the RCC says is true of her then Paul and Peter would have said so, would have explained it clearly. Paul in the letter to the Romans never once teaches anything about her and yet he say that this book contains the gospel that he taught.
regards all
Phil
(i) In Luke 11:27-28 Jesus tells the woman in the crowd (without being rude to his mother who is indeed blessed), – “Rather, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it. So Jesus commands the woman not to pay attention to His mother Mary, instead pay attention by hearing and obeying the Word of God, instead. If RC Church is the one true Church established by Jesus Christ as is claimed by Roman Catholics, then Roman Catholics and the RCC Church would obey what Jesus commands. But it is not.
(ii) Luke 2:43-49 proves that Mary, who is given the title “Mother of God” by the RCC Church, cannot hear prayers since she is woefully ignorant of the wherabouts of Jesus.
i truly believe mother mary… i love her i have no words to tell about mother mary’s blessings towards me,
she always answer my prayers through jesus..
mother mary pray for us all sinners.
thank you
Nathaniel Fernandes said …..So Jesus commands the woman not to pay attention to His mother Mary, instead pay attention by hearing and obeying the Word of God, instead.
Read more at Why Pray To Virgin Mary?
Response from Mike Shannon…….
Jesus did not say to ignore Mary. He said the earthly relatioship of Mother and son is not as important as the relationship to God which is the great commandment or law (Love God and neighbor is the short version) . He also complimented His mother because she did what he said better than anyone else (or as well as anyone else). She heard the Word of God and kept it (Let it be done to me as you have said she said to God through Gabriel and she suffered much because of this “Oath of loyalty” to God ). If you read, in the bible, before this statement of Jesus you see he is in a teaching mode and this was a great opportunity to compliment His mother, though not in an obvious way to the crowd, but MAINLY to teach that we must learn what God wants and obey his commandments. Observe them means to obey them not just look at them. He was reiterating the Great Commandment which also includes loving our neighbor. I comment this web site for making people think about God and the Catholic Church versus the Protestant church. Both sides are stuck in their beliefs because they do not discuss and prove their beliefs and this web page helps that process. I am convinced the Catholic Church is still valid but has its problems due to humans being involved. Even the 12 Apostles were often in error and of course Judas wins the prize. Unless he was just trying to get Jesus to hurry up which someone pointed out as a possibility. Anyway it takes time. I would just say make sure you (and I) keep in mind people have opinions based on intelligent thought but we are often blinded by Satan and our passions. I think God made it this way so we can learn to be Charitable and merciful in our thoughts against people who disagree with us. When we start calling names we are in trouble with Jesus i.e. the Whore of Babylon, and need to remember we are trying to seek truth not trying to win a debate.
love,
mike
pS In Medjugorje Mary says to put the bible in a visible place and read from it everyday. She is only preaching the Word of God and her only power comes from God. God chose her….. shouldn’t we??? Mary is the greatest advocate for Jesus of all time. Ignoring her is displeasing to Jesus who obeyed the commandment HONOR THY FATHER AND THY MOTHER, through allowing her to come to the earth and to come to Him, through or because of her diligent effort to lead us to Him.
@1131 Mike says …
Mary, the 12 Apostles, and all believers are all partakers of God’s unveiling of plan of salvation for mankind, because God is not a respecter of persons (Acts 10:34). The 12 Apostles equally (perhaps more) sacrificed their lives take the “good news” to the uttermost parts of the earth as commanded by Jesus (Acts 1:8).
So why only exalt only the name of a single person such as Mary? How would it be interpreted if the popes give title “Brothers of God” to the 12 Apostles just like “Mother of God” title was given to Mary?
Remember: The Bible is sufficient for the Christian and we don’t need extra revelations. We honour Church Authority. We also honour tradition that does NOT contradict scripture.
God Bless you all.
For those who are so against the Catholic traditions concerning Mary, please take note of the following :
God has given us all, the free will to choose. So, Mary too had a free will to choose, she was not forced to accept God’s offer.
Mary’s “YES” was a vital factor in human salvation. You can argue that if Mary had said no, God would have found another person, but that is just conjecture. The fact is that Mary and Mary ALONE said “YES” and this allowed God to save us through His Son Jesus.
TEOTOKOS – The God bearer.
—————————–
Can any holy man or woman claim to bear the physical God in her womb mingled with their blood, flesh and genes. Abraham, Moses, David and all the prophets could not, all the apostles could not, all the ancient and modern women saints had not. Not even the angels in heaven. NON….ONLY Mary the Teotokos (God Bearer). Doesn’t this make her the Greatest of all God’s creation on earth as in heaven ??? Something to ponder.
“Jesus son of Mary” – “Mary Mother of God”
———————————————–
If you are truly Christian, then you should believe that Jesus is truly God and truly man ie. God Incarnated.
You see, you cannot seperate Jesus from His Godliness and His Humanity (His humanity is of course Mary… who else, tell me ?), if you do, then His sacrifiece on the Cross is meaningless (God is just show acting only, and there was no price to pay).
So, Jesus and Mary are eternally bonded in their humanity.
Have you ever wondered how Jesus looked like ? Well I can tell you, He looked just like Mary. Why? Because Mary is His mother, simple. So don’t be surprised when you are in heaven and you see Jesus and Mary side by side and you see their resemblance.
Do you see the reasoning behind “Jesus son of Mary” and “Mary Mother of God” ?
This does not make Mary a Goddess, she remains humbly a creature of God but THE GREATEST AND THE MOST BEAUTIFUL OF ALL HIS CREATIONS.
However, if you believe that Jesus’ Godly entities and human entities are seperated, then you are not a Christian, but belong to a an early Church heresay called Arianism, which is making it’s way back into some “christian circles”.
So, if you agree with me that Mary has to be the greatest and the most beautiful of all of God’s creation; Why shouldn’t she be Forever a Virgin ? or; Assumed into heaven ? And since she is Jesus’ mother, why can’t she be our mother too ?
Another thing, when you see the Mona Lisa painting and you admire its beauty…do you praise the Mona Lisa or do you praise Leonardo Da Vinci ?
Though you might not agree with all I have written, please respect and try to understand our Catholic Traditions as we respect and agree with you that Jesus Christ is the only way for salvation.
Thank you.
I have to correct you on 2 factual points James.
1) Jesus wasn’t beautiful so your assumption that Mary was is just silly. In addition not everybody looks like their mum. I don’t look like my mother at all.
2) Arianism is not the belief that Jesus had 2 separate natures. Arianism is the belief that Jesus is less than God the Father and is not co-equal with Him, in other words they are trinitarians. Monophysites say that Jesus was human but had only a divine nature and Nestorianism taught that there were two persons in Christ, both God and man.
Those a merely factual points.
Doctrinally you are in error because you have fallen for an old lie. Mary was a human being and therefore a sinner and therefore imperfect and fallen. Adam and Eve were perfect, as was the garden in which they lived. Corruption came with sin and now things no longer hold the prefection that God made them in.
I wish you did believe that Jesus is the only way but the Pope has stated that it is not true. He publicly confirmed that the RCC believes that people can be saved (Jews for instance) without Jesus. This is yet another flagrant denial of the scriptures and clearly heresy.
I am sure that you believe that Jesus is the only way, I would recommend joining a church that agreed with you about that.
regards
Phil
Help pray for man who deny me and my and my child let him come back to us please
Georgy,
You’ve done a great task for putting up this website.God bless you for that….
However you missed the main point!!!
Jesus is the only way to heaven.God has sent His only begotten Son to save us from our sins.
Jesus is the only mediator between us and God “For there is one God and one Mediator
between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus-.” (1Ti 2:5).
one mediator means there is only one.not more than one.
Of course Mary has an important role in executing God’s plan.But nowhere in the bible its mentioned
to pray to Mary and there is no need also. Whereas its clearly written when Jesus said in John 14:14, “If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.”
If you can pray direclty to God the father in Jesus’ name, why do we need alternate ways to reach Jesus.
Jesus has torn down the veil between God and the people who has beleived in Him as the saviour so that we can approach Him directly.
Still if you are taking other routes to reach Jesus, that means you definitely missed the main point of salvation!!!!!
Mary was virgin till she gave birth to Jesus’ step brothers and sisters (legimtimate sons and daughters of Joseph)
http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/virgin.htm
Praying that Let God open up your heart to His marvellous light to follow Jesus alone
as He is only worthy of our praise and adoration.Dont let your heart be hardened.
To James,
You have put up a good post, but some times Catholics who are not fully aware of the Church take it too far, that goes for you James. Mother Mary is our Mother. She is the Help of Christians, but not Goddess. She is a really gifted Human soul. the Crown of God’s creation. the Immaculate Conception, but not Goddess. God is God and only He is God, Three in one, the Holy Trinity!
To Phil,
No where in the Catholic Church you can find Jesus in not the only way. and no pope has ever declared it. Jesus is the only way. The Truth and the Life. And we don’t take other ways. Tell me one different way Catholic Christians follow to go to God??
To Rob,
Yes Jesus is the only way. What else the Catholic Church does. You cannot judge a human being has sinner just because he/she was a human being, who taught you to do so????
Adam’s Grandson ‘Seth’ walked with God all through his life, that is what the Bible says, was he a sinner? King Jehoshaphat was a good one of all the other retched kings of Israel, didn’t God spare him from destruction, was he a sinner?
i can give any number of examples, but you have to understand, Being hunam is not a quality of sinner! Mother Mary was and is Virgn, and Holy. no where in the Bible it is said, after Mary gave birth to Jesus, She had sons and daughters of Joseph…. is it???
Guys this is my last post. I humbly request you all to put aside your differences to be united in the name of the Lord our God Jesus Christ. The time is at hand, very near… Pray and be strengthened by His Holy Spirit.
May the Grace of Our Lord Jesus Christ, and the Love of God, and the Communion of the holy Spirit be with you all!!!!
May all the Angles and Saints stand guard at your side, giving you the strength and grace of our Lord Jesus Christ!
Yours in CHRIST,
George.
George:
Bible says so in Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”
All human beings born in this world are sinners as per the Bible.
Mary is no exception. There is no reference for immaculate conception anywhere in the Bible. Immaculate conception is one of the false teachings spread by Catholic church.
Even Mary needs a savior to save herself.
Mary was humble enough to acknowledge God as her savior.Sinless people doesn’t need a savior.Here Mary addressing God as savior, she acknowledges herself as one of the sinners.
Luke 1:46-47 “My soul glorifies the Lord
and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior”
@George
Stop your fairy tales. Open the Bible and find out the truth. There is ONLY ONE way to heaven ,that is thorugh Jesus. Not thorugh mary or dead saints. Mary still waiting for his arrival. She cannot hear our prayers because she is not God.
One GOD and One mediator, and that mediator is a man NOT a woman.
Tell your fairy tales to catechism class children
Rgds
@ George,
Thanks for your post. However, I never said Mary is a Goddess. What I said was – “This does not make Mary a Goddess, she remains humbly a creature of God but THE GREATEST AND THE MOST BEAUTIFUL OF ALL HIS CREATIONS.”
Thanks.
Dear Phil Saunders,
Thank you for your post.
Yes, I made a mistake about Arianism it should have been Nestorianism.
You said, Jesus wasn’t beautiful. What makes you say that ? Do you mean Jesus was ugly. Was there a verse in the Bible that states that Jesus was ugly ? Wait till you see Him face to face in all His Glory and Splendour, then you can judge.
As for me, “beauty is in the eye of the beholder”. He will always be beautiful because I love Him so. Oh, and another thing; you might not look like your mother, but I do look like my mine.
It might help if you meditiate more on the awesomeness of the Incarnation. The importance that it has on our salvation. The fact that Jesus had to sacrifice all His glorious majesty to become man, suffered, died and rose again, all because He loved us and wanted to save us. Without His Incarnation, all these would be meaningless – Before the Resurrection, there was the Cross, before the Cross there was the Incarnation.
Also think about the role Mary played in this epochal event. What Mary agreed to do and what eventually transpired; wasn’t it the greatest event the world has ever witnessed ?
Also, everytime you reflect on this story of salvation, you cannot blank Mary out of the equation, she has to be there.
I hope you meditate deeply on it and maybe you can see why we catholics place Mary in such high esteem.
Go thru this.. it is profound and would help understand..
Protestant: Why do you Catholics worship Mary?”
Catholic: ” We don’t. Catholics honor Mary. We worship God.
Protestant: “Why do you honor Mary?”
Catholic: “We honor her because Jesus honored her.”
Protestant: “How do you know that Jesus honored her?”
Catholic: Because of the fourth commandment.
He obeyed perfectly.
Catholic: If Jesus honored His mother then why don’t you?
Protestant: “The Bible doesn’t tell us to.”
Catholic: “But the Bible says that we are to imitate Christ
in all things.” (1 Corinthians 11).
How do you feel toward someone who loves your mother?
Don’t you love that person in return?
Honor – yes, but Catholics worship Mary
Jesus never worshipped Mary.
Jesus prayers towards Father
Catholics prayers towards Mary and dead saints.
Jesus never used rosary
Jesus never told anyone to obey his Mother
BTW Mary told us to obey Jesus!
Jesus never told us to pray Hail Mary 53 times
Jesus never told us take her as mediator
Jesus never told any one to make idols of mary and lit candles
Jesus never told she will assume to heaven on Aug 15
Jesus never told anyone that he will give Mary the title Queen of heaven
Jesus never told that there is a mother for his church
Jesus never told anyone that he will give the crown to Mary before his second coming
There are lot more
Open the bible and find out the truth. God bless you Ralph
Hi James
Isaiah 53
2For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
Jesus was not beautiful to look at, so if he wasn’t and he looked like mum…neither was she.
Of course he is wonderful for us but we have never seen him and do not know what he looks like. His beauty is internal not external.
I don’t blank Mary out, nor do I blank out Joseph, Miriam, John the Baptist (who Jesus said was the greatest person ever born) or the disciples or anyone else.
Of course you should esteem Mary, and Joseph, and John the Baptist etc etc. The problem is that you make idols and worship them (to worship means to bow or kneel down before them) and make them great with false things instead of the plain truth. God used Mary and Mary was a woman of faith so she deserves credit for that. And I look forward to meeting all those heroes of faith in heaven. But based on the truth not human ideas and embellishments.
Hi Ralph
I shall reply in like form
Protestsant “So we must imitate Christ in everything?”
R. Catholic “Yes, fo course”
Protestant “Oh, so when are we off?”
R. Catholic “Off where?”
Protestant “To Israel to worship at the temple, change our clothes, get rid of our car, mobile phone and go back to using a donkey”
R. Catholic “Oh I didn’t mean everything only spiritual things!”
Protestant “So when did Jesus make a statue of his mother or pray to her?”
R. Catholic “I have to go now you heretic!!!”
Mary in the Plan of Redemption
Catholic Question – (1): Without the fiat of the Blessed Virgin Mother none of us would have the incomparable beauty and truth of Our Lord Jesus Christ incarnate! If one needs proof of this, simply look at how the archangel Gabriel was sent from heaven to ASK Mary’s permission for the Son of God to be incarnate in her womb!
Answer – (1): I found the answer in the Gospel of Luke. I did not find Gabriel asking Mary’s permission, but informing her thus: “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name JESUS.”
“You will conceive” is not asking permission but a statement of fact.
The incarnation of the Son of God and the redemption He accomplished was not dependent on human will but on the unchanging plan of God the Father. In His eternal and immutable decree God prepared willing servants like Mary just as He prepared reluctant ones, like Zechariah, and even evil and wicked ones like Pilate and Annas, to achieve His eternal purpose.
Catholic Question – (2): But “you will conceive” is an example of God’s divine courtesy. It is the very essence of love to ask permission to do anything. God never forces Himself upon us. We must always accept His invitation to love. Otherwise it would not be love but merely coercion. The Blessed Virgin Mary could have certainly refused to accept this divine invitation. So yes, the Blessed Mother could have said “No” to God and therefore the statement “you will conceive” would not have come to pass!
Answer – (2): What if Mary said “No”? You fancy that God’s plan would have come to a halt, and the incarnation would not occur. But that is a foolish thought! God does not have to use coercion to accomplish His unchanging plans. He Himself had predestined Mary for that very purpose, that she should willingly be the mother of the Lord according to the flesh.
In the same page we read how the angel also told Zechariah that his wife would conceive and have a son. Again the angel was not asking permission. Unlike Mary, Zechariah did not believe. What happened? Did that alter God’s plan? No, not one bit. Zechariah and Elizabeth still had a son, John, as determined and planned by God.
God orchestrated the history of salvation according to His eternal plan. We should therefore look to Him in adoration and with everlasting gratitude for the redemption which was planned before the world begun and which was perfectly unfolded by the invisible hand of the sovereign and almighty God.
Nathaniel Fernandes,
Am really filled with joy to read your post. This made me return to just say “Praise GOD!!”.
God have reveled the truth through your mouth , the truth all of us Catholics have under-stud but unable to express in words. Mother Mary is Special. that is clear in the post that you have posted. She was created for this very purpose.
Her Soul was made by God for this very purpose(To be a major part of human Salvation)!
And that is worth it to proclaim all Her deeds all through the world. And She who was created by God solely for this was taken back up to His place where She rightly belongs. That says it all why Catholics have give Mother Mary so much importance.
Dear Phil Saunders,
I’m surprised you took Isaiah 53:2 (the suffering servant) to state your case that Jesus was ugly to look at. What has His physical beauty got to do with His “BEAUTY”.
You are right, no one has seen God. But yes, Jesus in His incarnated body, has a beauty that radiates through the entire universe, which many fail to see. The Word of God became flesh. You see His beauty through His creations and works. Similarly, with Mary. We see her beauty in her humilty and her purity and the effort, she as a mother, had to bring up Jesus.
I think Mary’s purity is of contention here. Mary had to be pure in order for God to mingle with her body. While as Catholics we believe in the dogma of the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption, handed down by church Traditions, Protestants find it difficult to comprehend. And, this brings us to another topic, Sola Scriptura (Bible only) and the Catholics Scripture plus Traditions. This is our main difference Phil.
I’m sure there are many online resources that you can refer to concerning protestant and catholic theology.
However, there is one thing that we are united in, and that is our belief in and love for Jesus Christ. But, if you are adamant that the RCC is the church of satan then I think there is not much to talk or right about.
In response to George at #1146:
George…I think you have mis-understood my post at #1145. What is meant by that post of mine is that, when God choose Mary, or the 12 Apostles, he predestines everything, keeping in mind that He (God) is not a respecter of Persons (Acts 10:34). As God chose Mary, so He too chose the 12 Apostles to be partakers of His grand plan of Salvation in Christ Jesus. Likewise all Christians/Believers are chosen to be partakers in God’s glory thru faith in Christ Jesus (John 14:6). Mary and the 12 Apostles are merely human and not Gods. Jesus is God incarnate in the flesh – He created Mary, 12 Apostles, and all believers and only He (Jesus) is the author of creation, salvation and our faith. Eternal life is found only in Jesus and he ONLY is the gate to heaven. We cannot enter heaven by any other means. We can certainly honour Mary and the 12 Apostles for their exemplary roles. But we CAANOT worship them, pray to them asking for interecessions because they are humans (mere mortals) and not God and CANNOT hear prayers. We have to only exalt the deity of Christ Jesus for he is God and head of His Church.
In my post at #1146, it also means that IF Mary refused the accept the angels gabriels message of the good news, than God would have certainly chosen some other woman, Why?? Because God is not a respecter of Persons (Acts 10:34). He Wouldn’t bother if Mary refused. It is totally ridiculous to exalt mere mortal humans like Mary and the 12 Apostles.
I honour the exemplary roles of Mary and the 12 Apostles, but only Jesus is my Saviour because ONLY he (Jesus) died for me to take away my sins. Mary and the 12 Apostles did not die for me and are unable to take away my sins. So it is sheer nonsense to say that Mary is the gate of Heaven, refuge of sinners, our hope, the morning star that Catholics offer prayers of worship to her. God plan of Salvation is thru Christ Jesus and no one else.
Every Blessings,
Dear James
I chose it because it shows that physically Jesus was not beautiful or deirable. I don’t doubt that Mary was good wife and mother. So not an eternal virgin (a good wife cannot be) and not a queen but a mother and wife of a carpenter.
The trouble is that what you think is tradition is not. The fathers did not agree that Mary was sinless, stating explicitly that she was not. So both scripture and tradition support the idea that Mary sinned.
There are three things that we learn from and the bible is the best tool we have of the 3. This is because it hasn’t changed and is reliable whereas church councils are not reliable (indeed some them were in error according to the RCC) and the bible is better than tradition because there are various traditions that are not supported by the fathers or scripture but which the RCC adopted.
I didn’t say that the RCC was the church of satan. You have confused me with someone else.
regards
Phil
I do believe Catholics innocently give worship to Mary and see it is “fitting” because a fallible human Pope declared so. Being innocent also means being deceived.
Mary was just a humble peasant jewish woman, like the typical shy village girl who was brought up with jewish traditions and customs, chosen by God. She was even not
Roman Catholic.
How are Catholics deceived?? The Roman Catholic mother Mary is Satan’s counterfeit and not the same as the Mary described in the Biblle – the true Biblical Mary.
Who is that woman with the child in hand whom Catholics falsely believe it is “Mary Help of Christians and Baby Jesus”?? Is she truly the real mother of Jesus, and is
Jesus still a baby??
Satan’s grandest plan: The Worship of mother and child (godess and queen of heaven) spread from Babylon to the ends of the earth, but were called different names in
the languages of the various countries where their worship appeared. In Hinduism – the mother/child combo is called devika with child krishna and many other
combinations of the same mother child godess appearing in other worldly religions – see the image here: http://tinyurl.com/7r84lkf
Indeed, many leading occultists see striking parallels between the Roman Catholic “Virgin Mary”–the “Queen of Heaven”–and the goddess Isis. And the comparison is startling. Presently, Roman Catholicism holds Mary to be eternally virgin, just as Isis was. Catholicism also contends that Mary was without sin, making her into a type of “god.” In fact, there are some who claim that Mary is the “fourth person” within the Trinity. This belief is linked to Catholicism’s claim that Mary now has a direct say in mankind’s salvation through her role of co-redemption and mediation. Hence, the elevated Mary becomes a “goddess” in the Catholic faith, just as Isis was a goddess in the pantheon of Egyptian deities. And just as Isis was (and still is) called “Mother of the World” and “Queen of Heaven,” so too Mary is now exalted with these same titles.”
What Did God Say About The “Queen Of Heaven”? “The children gather wood, the fathers kindle fire, and the women knead dough, to make cakes for the queen of heaven;
and they pour out drink offerings to other gods, to provoke me to anger.” (Jeremiah 7:18-19).
Catholics worship a false Mary, Satan’s counterfeit.
tonsil, they never leave us because they are our ‘brothers’ – remember the son who decided to leave ‘home’ in the Scripture and to go it alone ?
The Father never forgot him. yes. Protestants are the prodigal son of the Church.
The Lord says:
‘…kingly and glorious these churches proclaim Me, they affirm My might, proclaiming My fearful power, singing their praises… acknowledging My Omnipotence…but I become a stumbling stone when it comes to measure the Magnificence of My Divinity and of My presence in the Eucharist…’ (tlig 16/10/2000)
The ‘Real Presence’ of Our Lord in the Holy Eucharist is the ‘Perpetual Sacrifice’ spoken of by Daniel.
And guess who abolished It from the Holy Communion?
The founders of protestantism have a lot to answer for. The Lord described protestants like this:
‘..they will continue to be like a drowsing man, who will never grasp anything you tell him..’
Do you know why they are drowsy ?
Because they do not share the Body and Blood of our Lord in the Eucharist-transubstantiation.
John 6:53-56 is very clear about this.
(nb: if you argue against this piece of Scripture, you will be arguing against the very heart of Jesus’s incarnation in to this physical world. I have explained this in one of my posts. I will not repeat it to the’drowsy’)
And still to the ‘drowsy’, read Roman 14.13
and ‘stop passing judgement on other christians’.
And to pastors and preachers who put letters infront of their names and to be called as such – letters such as Dr….refer to Luke 16.15.
Why do you want to be called, Doctor…..?
Its because you want to show the world that you are ‘learned’, clever even, and that you want to be honoured by man.
The Lord rephrased Luke 16.15 in True Life in God as:
‘…do not seek honour from man, those who are honoured by man are loathesome in My Sight…’
Very serious indeed.
‘May the Lord bless you and keep you. May the Lord make His eyes to shine upon you and be gracious unto you. May the Lord show His face and give you peace’
@joeli:
why did the pope usurp the title “Holy father”? Is he really holy? The only one who is Holy is Jesus who knew no sin yet become an sin offering for us. The word holy is found only one in the New Testament at John 17:11 and it the sole title that belongs to almighty God only.