Why should we pray to Virgin Mary? The reasons are many.
Why do Catholics pray to Mother Mary? Is Rosary really powerful?
The intercession of Mother Mary is very powerful as Jesus cannot neglect His mothers commands.This can be proved by the first miracle Jesus did at the wedding at Cana. – (John 2:1-11). Mother Mary told Jesus “They have no more wine.” And what was the final result? He turned water into wine.
In “The Poem of the Man-God” by Maria Valtorta, she says that Jesus told her about this incident as “I did it for Mary”. This proves that the intercession of Mother Mary is very very strong.
Mother Mary was blessed with Holy Spirit abundantly. We can see this as we read “At that time Mary got ready and hurried to a town in the hill country of Judea, where she entered Zechariah’s home and greeted Elizabeth. When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.” (Luke 1:39-41) ; just by Virgin Mary’s greeting.
Listen to the talk from Apologetics on Mary, Purgatory and The Bible
What the angels thought on this matter:-
When angel appeared before Zechariah,father of John, angel just greets him by his name ,nothing more although he was “upright in the sight of God, observing all the Lord’s commandments and regulations blamelessly.” – (Luke 1:6)
When angel appeared before Joseph, the greeting was like this: “an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.” – (Matthew 1:20). Angel greeted him ‘son of david’, thats all.
Now let us see how did the angel greet Virgin Mary. It goes like this: “The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.” (Luke 1:28). See the difference….
Also read the article Mary, The Mystical Rose
i said this for all the people who are denying the savior of the world . ( even for the admin.)
god said mother Mary was in god’s plan but he(god) did not wanted Mary be become the god.
that’s why , Jesus said ” ASK ME AND IT SHALL BE GIVEN UNTO YOU ” then why we do catholic pray to Mary to tell Jesus what do we need ? when Jesus all ready said that i am the only way to heaven not mother Mary .
Liam (#1510):
Who is Jesus according to you? Do you agree that He is God manifested in the flesh?
# 1513
Interrupting because couldn’t resist. You’ll get your answer.
But I just wonder why don’t you answer it first yourself from your own ‘interpretation’?
Because you have already decided what you are going to say, whatever else others write you anyways not going to ponder on!
@Alan #1507,
Question: What exactly is the purpose of John Baptizing in the Gospels and what type of Baptism did John the baptist preach.
Reply: Even a grade two pupils in our Catholic schools can answer you straight without blinking their eyes, the only thing I did not touch that issue is because , brother Liam has sufficiently addressed this in his response to you. And let me remind you that we had touched this issue partially in Nicodemus episodes. And for the benefit of your additional information I will supply you biblical instruction taken in (Mt.3:11); “I baptize you in water for repentance…†and (Acts 19:4-5); “ Then how were you baptize? He asked. With John Baptism they replied. John baptism said Paul was a baptism of repentance;†Now I have answered you what type John’s baptism had preached, what do you want to know more of this issue? I know you are up in something…let’s give it a try?
Before I forget, since you are keen to receive response to your query because you feel smarting that I may not be able to answer all your nonsense I also demand in return you answer all the questions I have addressed to you. I will list below questions you have conveniently evaded in our discussions.
1.)Sir may ask you, did you really know who was the original person the KJV translators base their works of translating it into old English? You seem not aware of the history from what source the KJV’s base their translation? #1299:
2.)Before I forget sir, How will you reconcile 1Cor.9:5 “WIFE†(translation) to 1 Cor.7:9, “I wish that all men were as I am†[i.e., unmarried]?? #1304:
3.)Apostolic succession??? You haven’t produce any document to justify you lineage of your own apostolic succession.#1481???
4.) What is your point #1482, between amongst women and above women? #1486:
5.) Which is which, have biblical truth or contains un-biblical teachings? #1500:
6.) I have also touched 1John 4;1-3(about the flesh and the anti- Christ) but you conveniently did not answer on this issue. #1481:
7.) I have also illustrated 1John 2:18-19; referring to the false teachers but you also conveniently evaded this issue. #1481:
8.) Are you not aware that you may fulfill prophesy of Gen. 3:15??? #1500 and 1494: Several times I have used this verse to illicit reaction but you remain silent on this imputation.
These were issues that you have evaded to answer but on those eight issues I shall only demand the “Apostolic Succession� I will make a fair deal to end once and for all arguing with you, that if you can provide public documents from your generation rewinding back to the first apostles of Christ (ready to be cross checked???) supporting your lineage of apostolic succession I shall leave the Catholic faith and be a bible believing Christian but if you cannot provide, the same thing should happen to you, would you agree?
I await your response to this challenge.
Jesus king of mercy I trust in you.
Ave maria!
@Alan #1503,
Here we go again, I almost admire your ability in twisting passages in the Scripture. Here is another example of a cymbal clashing or a gong booming without direction of a conductor.
“Mary recognised the guilt of her sin and was forgiven when she admitted to God that He was the savior.â€
Show me a verse that supported your argument that Mary admitted the guilt of her sin to God?
Here is the typology why Mary pronounced “God my Savior.†She was fulfilling the prophesy of Psalm45:18; ‘So shall the king desire your beauty; for he is your lord, and you must worship him… I will make your name memorable through all generations; therefore shall nations praise you forever and ever.â€
“You see some man(like Alan)who think himself wise? (By manipulating, twisting and bending the words in the scripture) More hope for a fool than for him!†Prov.26:12
Jesus king of mercy I trust in you.
Ave Maria!
@Brother Liam, #1505:
Thank you for a well founded instruction you shared to us, i completely agree with you!
Ave Maria!
1513
Alan,still playing your wee games.Such an absurd (silly)question to ask me based upon the comments that I have expressed as a member of Christ’s Catholic Church since I entered the debate.
The TRUTH is in my contributions and if you or anyone refuse it then so be it.The latter the result of our God given gift of ‘free will’.
~~~
1511
Shirley:
Yes,we all needed a saviour and we got one.But Mary was saved in a special manner because she was destined to be the Mother of Jesus.
But,please, bear in mind that Mary’s sin was not a ‘personal sin’ for when you were born to your parents like Mary you were not guilty of a personal sin but like all of us we were ‘tainted’by the ‘original sin’of Adam and Eve.Thus it is the sin of our 1st parents which we inherited from the latter but you or I was not guilty of committing it!
Thus ‘original sin’ is completely different to ‘actual sin’ which we committ when we break the Commandments of God and His Church.
Here, I recall my children who were not born with an immunity to disease.Thus the local medical profession vacinated them against diseases.Helping my children to develop an immunity and fight disease.And when I reflect upon ‘original sin’ I sense a connection between it and a vaccine for, on a spiritual level, the vaccine provided by God is known as Baptism.The latter granted by Jesus to remove the sinful stain of original sin- a sin not committed by us.
Christine Marie (#1515):
Well.. well.. well.. just as i suspected!! You and Liam are not in the same “wave-length” as far as baptism is concerned. For Liam has said one thing and you say another. And yet Liam boastfully claims that the catholic church is united and does not have diverse interpretations like the Protestants denominations (see #1501). You people need to sit up with and recognize the falsehoods you are living in.
Ok. so you Christine have got it right, some what but not fully. It appears you have skipped some verses to throw up your usual smoke-screen and hide behind it.
Yes John preached the Baptism of Repentance. But what is that Repentance exactly? Turn to Mary as co-mediator, co-redemptrix?
No.No.. You need to read Acts 19:1-6 for a clear picture especially verse 5.
Now some exhortation and edification for you, liam and others. Did you now that though biblically correct, the catholic teaching on baptism rests on the John’s Baptism in the Gospels, however those who were baptised during the gospel period had to be re-baptised again? Did you know this? How do we know this? Precisely Acts 19:1-6 explains it all. So infant baptism is the RC Church is first and foremost, invalid. The New Testament Baptism is only for those who “believe” in the Lord Jesus Christ and not in anyone else Mary/saints. etc. St Paul is very clear in Acts 19:1-6.
There are four steps of becoming a complete Christian, known as the “Christian initiation” into the kingdom of God, and eternal life. These are {i)Repent (ii)Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ (iii)Be Baptised (iv) Receive the Holy Ghost.
Where can we find these find four steps? Can we find the “truth” and rely on the Gospels? – the answer is no .. because those baptised during the gospel period, could not receive the fourth (iv) requirement, the Holy Ghost, because the Holy Ghost was promised only after Jesus ascended into heaven. So to receive the Holy Ghost they (disciples baptized by John) had to be re-baptized – St.Paul makes it clear in Acts 19:1-6. Got it?? Are you beginning to see a clear picture now?
Now before i get to the meat of my exhortation, I pray the we have a receptive heart and an alert mind.
Now the most surprising million dollar question… Let me explain by grouping Christendom into 3 major camps (a)Catholics (b)Evangelicals (c)Pentecostals.
Now let’s see closely what each of the said 3 groups preach in terms of salvation and becoming a child of God.
(a) Catholics – say Baptism is the means.
(b) Evangelical – say believe by faith in Jesus.
(c) Pentecostal – say receive the baptism of the holy spirit, twice, and start speaking in tongues.
Now you will surely agree with me what I have written at (a-c).
So. if we analyse the teachings of all the three groups, are they preaching the “biblical truth”? Yes, but only quarter of the truth. Why?? because all 3 groups teach requirement (iii) and (iv), but ignore (i) and (ii). Why has this happened?. Well the answer is simply that these three groups have taken a few bible verses blown it out of context and made it into a “pretext”. And pretext breeds heresies!!!. Are you getting the point now? All three Groups do not have the the “complete” truth, but just (iii) and (iv), so the Christian initiation into the Kingdom of God and Eternal life. Evangelicals stress on (ii)which is greater than the other three, but it does rest on the three as support.
So that why til today why Catholics and Evangelicals both point fingers at each other. Catholics say -“it is not by faith alone” while the Evangelicals say in the affirmative and further say that Baptism is just an ordinance commanded by the Lord and that we are saved by faith by grace alone as the prime focus.
Where can we find the exact four steps for a person to be fully birthed (the same Born gain) thing Jesus spoke in John 3), the Christian initiation, into the Kingdom of God, and eternal life? Can you throw some light on this subject because it will unlock perhaps all other misconceptions you may have?
Chrsitine Marie (#1516):
Show me a verse that supported your argument that Mary admitted the guilt of her sin to God
Is there always a necessity that some biblical teaching must be explicit and not implied? Where can we find the word “Trinity” in the Bible, but yet why do we believe in the “Trinity”?. Can we not find the “concept” taught in 1 John 5:7? unless off course you look into a “Corrupted” bible version.
Like wise, we as born sinners (Mary too); when we acknowledge and turn in humble submission to the God and acknowledge him as the savior is in acknowledgement of His Holiness and sovereignty to forgive our sins and to clean us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). In the biblical context, Mary is acknowledging God as her savior, because only a sinner recognizes the need of a savior.
I surely see you are finding it difficult to admit that you yourself are a “sinner” and this is pride in the eyes of God.
@Brother Liam,
Have you notice comment #1508 second paragraph? Your beloved opposition was now using Gen.3:15 against us, this reminds me of his claim being Catholic as well. Well maybe this is a good sign that he sees light in arguing with us. Piece by piece he was learning to use the defense of a Catholic faith, imagine using the very verse, teachings implied to Mary and Mary’s offspring! Unknowingly he was employing our arguments, and if we are in a sport of boxing this guy is totally groggy for the numerous blows you throw at him but do not be complacent brother Liam, (Satan employ this tactic in the garden of Eden even to the point of claiming he was also lord, lord of the underworld). The only thing he can be saved is the counter Hail Mary punch you used against him but I doubt he will find it in his arsenal because only the true disciples of Christ and of Mary knows it by heart.
Ave Maria!
#1520.. (errata)
Some little goof up on my part:
i said “…because only a sinner recognizes the need of a savior”. Instead it should be as:
“.. a sinner when under conviction of the Holy Spirit recognizes the guilt of their sin”.
Liam at #1518 .. i see there is a confusion perhaps of not understanding about sin. When the bible teaches about sin as in Roman 3:23 it is indicating the Adamic sin we have inherited and not personal sin. So when we make claims about Mary’s immaculate conception, we are saying she is born without the Adamic sin inherited which is false because the bible teaches that only Jesus was immaculately conceived in Mary’s womb without the Adamic sin.
See what 2 Corinthians 5:21 says = For he (GOD) hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Only Jesus who is God is immaculately conceived in Mary’s womb without the stain of original Adamic sin. Mary the mother of Jesus became sanctified at the moment she submitted to God’s will (but she was “born” with the original Adamic sin just like other human beings – it must be noted) and she explicitly acknowledged “God my savior”. Mary is simply the human vessel through which God became flesh, blessed to receive the Incarnate Lord, not to make Him.
But Rome preaches all falsehoods, such as Mary immaculate concept, Assumption bodily into heaven without any proof in the scriptures just because the Pope’s ego was stoked to come out with such a dogma, she is a co-mediator, co-redemptrix when scriptures say “no”. So why are we preached with such falsehoods and sheepishly follow and believe such false teachings thru blind obedience when the evidence is crystal clear. Should we obey what God says or what some “human” pope says blindly!!!
Question: “What does the Bible say about the virgin Mary?”
Answer: Mary the mother of Jesus was described by God as “highly favored†(Luke 1:28). The phrase “highly favored†comes from a single Greek word, which essentially means “much grace.†Mary received God’s grace.
Grace is “unmerited favor,†meaning something we receive despite the fact that we do not deserve it. Mary needed grace from God just as the rest of us do. Mary herself understood this fact, as she declared in Luke 1:47, “. . . and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior. . .â€
Mary recognized that she needed the Savior. The Bible never says that Mary was anyone but an ordinary human whom God chose to use in an extraordinary way. Yes, Mary was a righteous woman and favored (graced) by God (Luke 1:27-28). At the same time, Mary was a sinful human being who needed Jesus Christ as her Savior, just like everyone else (Ecclesiastes 7:20; Romans 3:23; 6:23; 1 John 1:8).
Mary did not have an “immaculate conception.†The Bible doesn’t suggest Mary’s birth was anything but a normal human birth. Mary was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus (Luke 1:34-38), but the idea of the perpetual virginity of Mary is unbiblical. Matthew 1:25, speaking of Joseph, declares, “But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave Him the name Jesus.â€
The word “until†clearly indicates that Joseph and Mary did have sexual union after Jesus was born. Joseph and Mary had several children together after Jesus was born. Jesus had four half-brothers: James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas (Matthew 13:55). Jesus also had half-sisters, although they are not named or numbered (Matthew 13:55-56). God blessed and graced Mary by giving her several children, which in that culture was the clearest indication of God’s blessing on a woman.
One time when Jesus was speaking, a woman in the crowd proclaimed, “Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed†(Luke 11:27). There was never a better opportunity for Jesus to declare that Mary was indeed worthy of praise and adoration. What was Jesus’ response? “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it†(Luke 11:28). To Jesus, obedience to God’s Word was more important than being the woman who gave birth to the Savior.
Nowhere in Scripture does Jesus, or anyone else, direct any praise, glory, or adoration towards Mary. Elizabeth, Mary’s relative, praised Mary in Luke 1:42-44, but her praise is based on the blessing of giving birth to the Messiah. It was not based on any inherent glory in Mary.
Mary was present at the cross when Jesus died (John 19:25). Mary was also with the apostles on the day of Pentecost (Acts 1:14). However, Mary is never mentioned again after Acts chapter 1. The apostles did not give Mary a prominent role. Mary’s death is not recorded in the Bible. Nothing is said about Mary ascending to heaven or having an exalted role there. As the earthly mother of Jesus, Mary should be respected, but she is not worthy of our worship or adoration.
The Bible nowhere indicates that Mary can hear our prayers or that she can mediate for us with God. Jesus is our only advocate and mediator in heaven (1 Timothy 2:5). If offered worship, adoration, or prayers, Mary would say the same as the angels: “Worship God!†(see Revelation 19:10; 22:9.) Mary herself sets the example for us, directing her worship, adoration, and praise to God alone: “My soul glorifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for He has been mindful of the humble state of His servant. From now on all generations will call me blessed, for the Mighty One has done great things for me — holy is His name†(Luke 1:46-49).
May the BVM, continue to inspire u as u keep up this good work. Amen
@Alan #1519 and #1520,
You are terrible indeed Alan, I can flatly say you have been used by the negative entities of the underworld. I haven’t seen sound reasoning from the very beginning since you enter into a discussion to anyone of us here. There was none contradictory arguments (with Liam, about baptism) we employ in destroying your argument, it is only in your malicious mind and wild imaginations you have created in your unfocused mind with the help of your teacher, the father of all lies.
Here again is one example that you do not know what you are talking about. “Christian Initiationâ€, do you really know what that means? I have nothing against how you lay down your premise (your interpretation or formula) about the subject because it is still up for a profound exposition, but to tell you frankly you created argument that is not consonant to the title you have mentioned. Check your fact first because we may be playing a different ball game.
You haven’t answered my challenge yet, about apostolic succession. I am still awaiting a response from you.
Jesus king of mercy I trust in you.
Ave Maria!
Pride was the sin of Adam and Eve and Alan you epitomise it today as confirmed by your comments.
You are so proud that you will use anything to defend your thought and that includes lies as a close reading of your contributions will confirm.Of course your statements are so contradictory at times that it confirms a confused personality.That is why I pray for You and those you may wrongly influence.
The only truth that is valid (not your personal interpretations of the Holy Bible-nor that of Luther,Calvin,Knox,etc.,)is that Holy Scripture confirms that Jesus established one Church upon Peter and that Church still exists after 2,000 plus years.And as then is now guided by the Holy Spirit.That role given to the Spirit then as now was to help Christians understand everything that Jesus taught so that authentic believers would be Christ’s messengers.That is through them Jesus would speak to all of humanity.
Thus the source of the Catholic Church’s teachings is Jesus,himself.The Church’s mission is to preserve and to hand on faithfully the teaching of Jesus.And it does this 1-through the spoken word:the tradition of the Church and 2-the written word:the New Testament,particularly the Gospels.
As I have written above through the history of Our Lord’s Church individuals like yourself and groups have mistaken certain aspects of Jesus teachings and as a result various heresies has sprung up which God’s Church has had to combat.In fact your position,Alan,is part of that heretical chain and no doubt there will be more for satan is always working on human pride via ones ego to destroy the Catholic Church which is the body and contains the message of Our Saviour.
Alan, it’s not my intention to attack you personally or those who agree with you but as a believer/member and supporter of Jesus and his Church I must defend the TRUTH AS I SEE IT AND BELIEVE IT.In fact it is the father of lies whom I am attacking when I oppose heresy.
If I had been in the times of Calvin and Luther for example I would be defending the Church of Christ then as now.
In conclusion,it is important that even those with heretical beliefs if they love and serve Jesus salvation is open to them for Jesus died to save all from satan.The heresies are mere spawn being used against Jesus and his Church in order to destroy.
It was Mary who gave Christ his human body but not his divinity.For Mary is not ‘divine’and that is why those who claim that Christians adore Mary are full of ignorance especially of the Bible contents and normal human sense.Of course there are also those fed lies by agents of the father of lies.
In the early days of Catholicism there was a heresy going about based upon personal interpretation that Jesus was not a God but purely a man.And others believed that Jesus was a God but not a true man.The supporters of the latter positions concluded that Jesus simply took on the appearance of a human so that he could be seen and heard as a human.
The latter was in 431 so the Pope of the time and the Fathers convened a Ecumenical Council to debate the matter at Ephesus.And there after much debate based upon holy Scripture and the guarantee of Jesus himself to Peter( in relation to matters of faith)the Church made it clear that Jesus was truly God.
Thus as mother of Jesus Mary was truly the Mother of God not of 2 persons just joined together but united in 1 person.Here then is an example of how Mary deepens our faith in Jesus Christ.And the same applies to Mary’s perpetual virginity.In fact the earliest Christian writings affirm these facts.As an example St.Basil(one of the earliest) said:”The friends of Christ do not tolerate hearing that the Mother of God ever ceased to be a virgin”.
Thus we should pray to Mary!
@Alan #1520,
We have no disagreement about the text 1John5:7 so you should have not used it as your way out supporting your argument that Mary admitted the guilt of her sin to God.
You accused, so the burden of proof lies on your side to produce evidence that support your accusation base explicitly of course in scripture. Got it!
Ave Maria!
Liam (#1527):
It was Mary who gave Christ his human body but not his divinity.For Mary is not ‘divine’ … Thus we should pray to Mary!
Then if Jesus is divine (God), don’t we have to obedient to what he explicitly commands? What did he mention in Luke 11:1 and 11:27-28?
Now if you say ..”Thus we have to pray to Mary” .. it becomes obviously you private interpretation that has no found support whatsoever in scripture. You are trying to elevate/project your self as the ultimate authority above the Word of God in all matters of faith, practice and doctrine. Biblical Christianity built upon apostolic doctrines does not support your “cooked” up stories. Nobody in the New Testament Christian Church ever “prayed” to Mary. You are simply disobedient to what Jesus commanded. Your prayers to Mary is futile dead-end alley. I do pray for you.
Hello Everyone,
This debate piqued my interest. So I thought i’d share some excellent videos from David Pawson – an englishman, a Bible scholar well known. The videos will surely give good increase in knowledge. So it will pay off to download these videos and hear them intently in the order given below. Good day to all of you!
David talks about ‘The Normal Christian Birth’
http://davidpawson.com.edgesuite.net/Pawson/Video/David_Pawson_Book_Promo_The_Normal_Christian_Birth_564.mp4
Born Again
http://davidpawson.com.edgesuite.net/Pawson/Video/David_Pawson_Born_Again_1000.mp4
Repent of Your Sins Towards God
http://davidpawson.com.edgesuite.net/Pawson/Video/David_Pawson_Repent_of_Your_Sins_Towards_God_1000.mp4
Believe in The Lord Jesus
http://davidpawson.com.edgesuite.net/Pawson/Video/David_Paswon_Believe_in_The_Lord_Jesus_1000.mp4
Be Baptised in Water
http://davidpawson.com.edgesuite.net/Pawson/Video/David_Pawson_Be_Baptised_in_Water_1000.mp4
Receive the Holy Spirit
http://davidpawson.com.edgesuite.net/Pawson/Video/David_Pawson_Receive_the_Holy_Spirit_1000.mp4
Saved at Last
http://davidpawson.com.edgesuite.net/Pawson/Video/David_Pawson_Saved_at_Last_1000.mp4
These videos are quite heavy, then you may download the mp3 files at http://davidpawson.org/resources/search/?search_terms=Normal+Christian+Birth&x=0&y=0
The official site is at http://davidpawson.org
@Alan#1523,
I thought of Alan as incredible reader of Scripture because that was his credential presented in his article # 1267, addressed to sis. Sheeja.
And I quote; “Christians learn the scriptures because God Commands it (2 Timothy 2:15). The Scriptures of the Bible is God’s love letter to mankind. It educates us about God, who is he and his Holy attributes. Besides it contains instructions how we should lead our life that is pleasing to him and according to his perfect will. Christians learn the scriptures because it has the power to transform lives, makes us wise and to make us holy and acceptable in God’s sight. Without the scriptures we would not know how the instructions God gives us to follow in order to enter heaven and to avoid hell. So at least basic knowledge and total obedience of the scriptures is important.†He was referring here the word “studyâ€.
At first I was somewhat convinced because he presented passages in the scripture that was acceptable in its first glance. But as he was going along and presenting arguments like a very meticulous teacher of the gospel of Christ I have sensed something wrong with his many teachings that force me to make comments to undress his heretical view like the latest I will illustrate below.
Quote excerpted # 1523;â€The word “until†clearly indicates that Joseph and Mary did have sexual union after Jesus was born. Joseph and Mary had several children together after Jesus was born. Jesus had four half-brothers: James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas (Matthew 13:55). Jesus also had half-sisters, although they are not named or numbered (Matthew 13:55-56). God blessed and graced Mary by giving her several children, which in that culture was the clearest indication of God’s blessing on a woman.â€
This comment was the most ludicrous comment I have ever heard from a preacher of a Bible believing Christian. It is really unchristian like downgrading the vow of chastity of the mother of our Lord Jesus Christ.
It is not my intention to have you embarrassed in this forum but I must correct you of the wrong impression you have cast to my Lady. You need to know important facts that you falsely attributed to Her.
With regard to the word “until”, let’s look at the following verses:
Matt 28.20: “..and surely I am with you always, until the end of the age.”
John 21.22: Jesus answered. “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?”
2 Sam 6.23: “no son was born to Michol, the daughter of Saul until her dying day.”
In all these examples, the word “until” does not mean that Jesus will cease to be with us after the end of the age, that John was intended to die should he still be alive when Jesus returned, or that Michol had a son after death. The word “until” shows that the writer is concerned primarily to inform us what happens before a specific event – not after.
Now you have named, and I quote, “Jesus had four half-brothers: James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas (Matthew 13:55). Jesus also had half-sisters, although they are not named or numbered (Matthew 13:55-56).†In “Chess parlance†as I have mentioned before, you have committed so many blunders because of your careless move but this latest was the most damaging that eventually lose any hope even to salvage a draw. You will be check mated on this (issue) game.
These four (apostles) half brothers you have mentioned was actually an apostles of Christ. I will give you verses that will prove of my contention. I can even supply you the name of their fathers and mothers to prove of erroneous and malicious imputation you attributed to our Lady. I will list it below for your additional knowledge and correct your wrong impression and application against Her.
1.Mt.4:21;â€James son of Zebedee and his brother John; they were in their boat with their father Zebedee, mending their nets and they called them.†Collaborated in Lk.5:10; “ so were James and John, sons of Zebedee.â€
2.Mt.20:20; “Then the mother of Zebedee’s sons came with her sons to make a request of Him, and bowed low;†Collaborated in Mt.27:56; “ Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of Zebedee’s son.â€
3.John 19:25; “Near the cross of stood his mother and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Cleofas and Mary of Magdala.†This episode was collaborated in Lk.24:10; “The women were Mary of Magdala, Joanna, and Mary the mother of James.†Also in Mt. 10:3; “James the son of Alphaeus,†Alphaeus and Cleofas are the same person, since the Aramaic name for Alphaeus could be rendered in Greek either Alpaeus or as Cleofas.
4.John 1:40-42; “One of these two who became followers of Jesus after hearing what John had said was Andrew, The brother of Simon Peter…he took Simon to Jesus. Jesus looked hard at him and said, ’you are Simon son of John; you are to be called Cephas-meaning Rock.†Collaborated in Mt.16:17; “You are the Christ, he said ‘the Son of the living God’. Jesus replied, ‘Simon son of Jonah’, you are a happy man!â€â€¦
5.Acts 1:13; “and Jude son of Jamesâ€
In the O.T and N.T the brothers of the Lord or brethren of the Lord does not literally means brothers of the same parent, half or full. It has a wide variety of usage in the Bible. Like for example listed below;
1. Abraham’s “brother” (Gen. 14:14), even though, being the son of Haran, Abraham’s brother (Gen. 11:26–28), he was actually Abraham’s nephew. Similarly, Jacob is called the “brother” of his uncle Laban (Gen. 29:15). Kish and Eleazar were the sons of Mahli. Kish had sons of his own, but Eleazar had no sons, only daughters, who married their “brethren,” the sons of Kish. These “brethren” were really their cousins (1 Chr. 23:21–22).
2.In Leviticus 10:4; Moses summoned Mishael and Elzaphan sons of Aaron’s uncle Uzziel, and said to them, come take your brothers…
3.In Acts 1:15; “One day Peter stood up to the brothers-there were about a hundred persons in the congregation: In the same manner, I am sure you call your members in your congregation brothers and sisters.
I believe I have sufficiently addressed your difficulty finding Mary’s brothers (children) you can also be one of the brothers mentioned if you will acknowledge now what St. Maximilian Mary Kolbe implied, when he said, “Whoever does not wish to have Immaculate Mary as his Mother…will not have Christ as his Brother.â€
I acknowledge Mary’s role in the N.T has not given enough prominence because she was satisfied being the backgrounder of the apostolic mission of the apostles, but to make it appear that she was of no importance and of less regard to the apostolic mission is once again highly dubious. And this was once again implied by my beloved opposition, Sir Alan Almeida and I quote;â€However, Mary is never mentioned again after Acts chapter 1. The apostles did not give Mary a prominent role.â€
Now we will look if this statement correctly supported by the Scriptures!
1.Romans 16:6; “greetings to Mary who worked so hard for you;â€
2.Galatians 4:4; “but when the appointed time came God sent his Son, born of a ‘woman’ , born a subject of the Law.â€
3.2John1:1; “From the Elder: my greetings to the ‘Lady’, the chosen one, and to her children, she whom I love in the truth-and I am not the only one, for so do all who have come to know the truth.†Remember the episode in the cross? When Christ said to his mother; “Woman, this is your son. Then to the disciple he said, this is your mother. And from that moment the disciple made a place for her in his home. This must be the best link we have in these two passages, they were collaborating each other.
4.Revelation 12:1; “The woman clothed with the sun…â€
It is not my intention to destroy your argument and embarrass you but I am acting charitably to correct constructively your wrong impression of the mother of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Think of this!!! If you are a married man, I am sure you once said to your wife ‘I Love you’, but if you will say afterwards- I really can’t stand your mother, do you think your lovely wife will say yes and marry you? Next time, please put some solid logic in your argument as correctly implied to you by Anon #1496!
Jesus king of mercy I trust in you.
Ave Maria!
Christine Marie (#1531):
I must truly say that you treat the scriptures like it was a simple story book instead of a divine book. You core intentions are not to “learn” scripture to allow it change and transform your life in accordance to God’s will, but rather use it as a weapon to debunk the truth with your heretical false teachings taught by roman catholic pagan traditions which “pollute” the Word of God. You never accept God’s authority but prefer to obey a human pope authority as the ultimate even if it goes against the teachings of the scripture. I sensed this attitude of yours from the beginning. You are led not by the “spirit” of God, but a “female” seducing spirit which is stoking you ego to believe not in the humble mother of Jesus as described in scripture, but a female goddess who has “usurped” the place of the Biblical mary masquerading as the co-redemptrix/co-mediator, when such a thing is not supported in scripture. Roman Catholicism is not christian but babylonian doctrine cleverly presented in a neat package. The is the true hallmark of a “cult” setup.
In Luke 1:46-55 is Mary’s “The Magnificat”.
Please reflect upon its contents.There are some beautiful authentic truth there- in.For example-‘My soul does magnify the Lord’.
Now as we know scripture is the truth,it is the Word of God and therefore those who deny its contents are definitely not singing from the same hymn book,so to speak.
Here through Mary’s confession the Holy Spirit is declaring that the soul of this Jewish virgin MAGNIFIES GOD.Think about it-reflect upon it? God is here saying via His Spirit that the soul of Mary increases His image.
Also, there is the part sentence of Mary in another quote from The Magnificat-for example-“For He that is mighty has done great things to me…”.Reflect,please,it does not refer to ‘great things for me’ but it states ‘great things to me’.
And I believe that the great things Our Father done to Mary was to ensure her perpetual virginity and sinlessness for God had chosen her from before Creation to be the Mother of his Son.And as God he had the power to do this.
Those who state that Mary was not sinless and eventually broke her virginity with Joseph cannot grasp the ALMIGHTY REALITY that is GOD.It is absurd to think not alone state that God who sent his Son to destroy SIN BY ACCEPTING INFLICTED TORTURE AND DEATH BY OTHERS would let his Mother revert to the common condition of humanity.Especially as Her Son overcame and conquered SIN.
Friends,in Christ Jesus,the son of Mary,in no way would abandon his loving Mother… For as she was preserved from sin and was a perpetual virgin who suffered as she saw her son suffering the love of Jesus for her brought her to heaven.That was ordained by God the Father.
1531:
Alan,
MARY, was preserved from sin because the one and only God who is eternally sinless decided to take on human form in order to destroy sin.Thus it would be absurd for our sinless God who is the eternal opponent of sin to be conceived in the womb of a SINNER?
That is why God preserved Mary from sin as part of his redemptive strategy.
And automatically when Jesus established his Church, Mary, was its Mother.Because the one and only Church (that is-the Catholic Church) is His BODY! And through the Sacrament of Baptism we become a part of the Body of Christ.
Now the Church is Christ and Mary is its sinless and ordained Mother.Thus we can pray to her and as St.Paul confirms we can pray to each other requesting help because we are members of ‘the Body of Christ’ whose Mother is Mary.
You end by saying that you pray for me and I thank you.But surely Our Saviour Jesus would not object to me praying to Mary his loving Mother for you.After all as God- Jesus is by his very nature LOVE.There is no selfish aspects to authentic Love and obviously Mary, in reception of prayers or requests,would consult her Son anyway.Because all comes ultimately via Jesus.
What kind of person would object to someone like Mary praying for them
on his behalf to her Son who is God and whom she dwells with.
1497
IS THERE A PROBLEM WITH THE VERSE
@ #1531
Dear Christine, thank you for 2John1:1 in this context!
Christine Marie (#1531)
You trying to use scriptures to proves Roman Catholicism is biblical, but your attempts are in fulility:
1.) You have conveniently forgotten Galatians 1:19 – shows that Jesus had half brother – James.
2.) Romans 16:16 – Mary or Mary Magdelene?
3.) Galtians 4:4 – you evade the “ultimate” importance of Galtians 4:5.
4.) Rev 12:1 – The woman clothed with sun is not Mary, but Israel. Israel brings forth Jesus Christ. If Mary, surely as mother of God she would not run away in the wilderness. See post #1094 for further clarification.
Liam (#1534)
I see you are not getting the correct picture. What is the point Mary has (according to RC Church interpretation) to be preserved from sin when in:
1.) 2 Corinthians 5:21 says – For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
2.) Matthew 8:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.
See the two verses i have quoted above? Now.. what is the point of Mary to be preserved from sin, when the scriptures above state that Jesus is the sacrificial lamb who bore our sins/infirmities and nailed it once and for all to give us victory over sin, death and hell? Why can’t you see the light of the false interpretation you are desperately clinging to? See the light Liam!! and turn toward the absolute truth of scripture.
Nobody is against the Mother of Jesus. She is a precious example to us. By all means we can honor her, but to elevate her to a Godly status is absurd. Jesus our savior is clear he advised to direct your prayers to God /the Trinity isntead. This is called “obedience” to what Jesus teaches, otherwise we will hear the dread statement he said in Matthew 7:21.
Jesus is God. The author of Salvation, Repentance, the Alpha and the Omega, The author and finisher of our faith, the Light and hope of the world. We need to rejoice because we have victory by believing the redemption and reconciliation Jesus obtained for us by his death, burial and resurrection.
Dear Sharon,
To God be the Glory!
@Alan#1537,
Read #1248; it is beautifully explained there on that article!
Ave Maria!
Christine Marie (#1539):
whats explained at #1248 is utter rubbish coming from the weird mind of that Celestino Culaba, a filipino who was asked the question by nathaniel fernandes why the Catholic church taught those poor filipino souls, to self flagellate a question he could not answer. Now is has silently disappeared from the scene no more to be heard of him on this turnbacktogod.com blog. Its a piry to fall prey to this type of people who expound utter trash. See 1205 of what the satanic catholic church teaches in the philipines.
Alan-1538:
You comments confirm the need for proper interpretation of The Bible as ‘written word’.That is why Our Lord,Jesus, ensured the existence of a body that would express his teachings without error.Thus the importance of ‘holy tradition’and God’s assurance through his Holy Spirit that in matters of faith and morals the truth would be expressed by Catholicism.
For as Jesus said (confirming my point)-“I still have many things to say to you but they would be too much for you now.But when the Spirit of truth comes he will lead you to the commplete truth,since he will not be speaking as from himself but will say only what he has learnt;and he will tell you of the things to come.He will glorify me,since all he tells you will be taken from what is mine.Everything the Father has is mine;that is why I said: All he tells you will be taken from what is mine”.(John.Ch.14-16).
Your denial of the above contents of The Bible-that is opposing ‘holy tradition’which the above primarily refers too confirms the contradictory morass of your thinking.That is you boast as being scriptural and yet deny by your position that which is scriptural i.e.reference to ‘HOLY TRADITION’ which scripture confirms(above) and the authority of the Magisterium of the one and only Church established by Christ.
“Made him to be sin for us”is not to be taken literally.I dont think that even the major non-catholics ever believed that sin was ever part of God.And like many I bear infirmities and sicknesses but the latter are not sins.
‘Hail,Mary,full of grace’- WHICH is God:the Father,the Son, and the Holy Spirit- Our Creator,Our Redeemer,Our Sanctifier-and Our Eucharist:The Bread of Life.
1539:
Alan,such comments that Jesus had a half brother taken by you from scripture again confirms the necessity of Our Lord setting up the Catholic Church to ensure that his truth would prevail.
For it is your personal interpretative thinking, shared by other heretics(some of whom, I admit,were sincere about aspects of their positions), that has delivered severe blows to Christianity across the centuries.
In fact you are but a person, it appears, that, based upon egoism, scurries through the Bible to pick here and there that which you think will help you to score a point on your behalf.That is hypocricy and as I am not a hypocrite I leave you to your futile little games.
~~~~~~~
DIVINE UNITY
~
Without ‘holy tradition’the truth is lacking!
Without ‘holy scripture’the truth is lacking!
Join both and you have an eternal backing-
That is our Holy Spirit and the soul of Catholicism- The Body Of Christ!!
@Alan#1540,
Ha! Ha! Ha! You make me LOL, the Nathaniel Fernandes you mentioned has many times been check mated by brother Celestino, the record of their debate has always been favorably on the side of the Filipino. Even Shyla #1202 came to the rescue advising Nathaniel “I hope that you will be cautious, not falling a sweet prey to Celestino and others.†In my scorecard Nathaniel has not scored even a single point. Check for yourself!
By the way, five days has passed and you have been silent to the challenge I hurled against you, don’t tell me that you will forfeit the challenge?
Ave Maria!
Liam (#1541 & 1542):
If and as the Roman Catholic Church teaches that “tradition” and “scripture” are to be equally revered, why are they contradictory and not complimenting each other?
Example:
——–
(a) Scripture says in 1 Timothy 2:5 – “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus“.
(b) In RC Church Tradition says – “MARY is co-mediator and co-mediatrix”
So why the difference between (a) and (b)? Surely RC Tradition (which is not apostolic) is making God Word a “book of lies” by saying we need to add Mary as co-mediator, isn’t it? How can Jesus establish a church which has contradictory teachings. 1 Timothy 2:5 is crystal clear that only Jesus is the only mediator, so why does the RC Tradition add more stuff to the Word of God by making Mary co-mediator, when it can simply accept what the scripture declares? Is Jesus not alone sufficient? Adding to the Word of God is simply “Slyness” of the devils work hiding in the Vatican to oppose the Word of God. The Catholic church is a satanic church. Please be aware that the scriptures of the Bible are “inspired” by God, whereas “Holy Tradition” nonsense you quack about is not “divinely” inspired but are man-made teachings. I believe God Word and I don’t need stupid pagan RC Church Traditions.
What about the Ten Commandment – why are they not the same. Make a comparison between the Ten Commandments found in the Bible and see if they match the Ten commandments taught in The Catechism. Would you care to explain??
#Liam (#1542):
Alan,such comments that Jesus had a half brother taken by you from scripture again confirms the necessity of Our Lord setting up the Catholic Church to ensure that his truth would prevail.
What I see is the false deception you are ensnared in. When you find you cannot respond truthfully according to the scriptures, you duck, hide and take a false sense of comfort in the sanctuary of Church of Rome which is an apostate church that has drastically shifted away from the true apostolic teachings. Even if the Church is in error. So I cannot see how you say the Catholic church is the one true established by Christ when it has professes to teach contradictory teachings. The Church Jesus setup is a spiritual church of all assembled born-again believers called “saints” in the body of Christ. Physical churches exist to accentuate the truth of the scriptures. No Church has authority to change the scriptures to suit its false doctrines. The Catholic church has modified the Ten commandments by showing a different version in the Catechism. We cannot profess to abide in two different versions – we be like hypocrites. Therefore if tradition is contradictory, we as Christians will trash it and uphold the truth in scripture. We cannot cling to “holy tradition” (as you call it) if it contradicts sctipture. Its only by satan;s influence that tha Roman Catholic Holy Tradition corrupts and pushes teh truths of scripture under the carpet. As christians we will vehemently oppose it tooth and nail.
Mary was a Sinneer who made a sin offering:
Two scriptures verses shown below that Mary was a sinner. Like all Jewish women, Mary was obedient to the law. Under the Levitical law, every Jewish women according to the customs of the said law. Here are the verses and note the words in bold letters:
Luke 2:22 (KJV) – And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord;
Leviticus 12:6-8 – And when the days of her purifying are fulfilled, for a son, or for a daughter, she shall bring a lamb of the first year for a burnt offering, and a young pigeon, or a turtledove, for a sin offering, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, unto the priest: Who shall offer it before the LORD, and make an atonement for her; and she shall be cleansed from the issue of her blood. This is the law for her that hath born a male or a female. And if she be not able to bring a lamb, then she shall bring two turtles, or two young pigeons; the one for the burnt offering, and the other for a sin offering: and the priest shall make an atonement for her, and she shall be clean.
So one can see clearly that the Roman Catholic church teaching that mary was conceived immaculately without sin or was sinless from birth is SHEER UTTER FALSEHOOD!!!
Christine Marie (#1543):
Well i don’t care a dime if whoever is checkmated. But I see that Celestino had no answer whatsoever in respect to the Catholic sponsored “self-flagellation” done by filipino catholics. Its a shame on your part to condone such datasrdly acts on your part. So whats the difference between the Muslim and Catholic religions – both are man-made inspired by Satan – religious terrorists through and through coming out straight from the pits of hell.
By the way, five days has passed and you have been silent to the challenge I hurled against you, don’t tell me that you will forfeit the challenge?
Are you wanting to come to the truth or simply wanting to engage in debate to satisfy your satan inspired ego? I am contemplating whether i should debate a self-righteous loser like you who is hopelessly lost having been fed with lies. May be you should debate the truth with the father of lies sitting in the Vatican.
Christine Marie (#1543):
I also see of no point in debating you because you are not “born-again” so you are a natural person which will be foolishness to you to whatever i interpret to you. God will not reveal His truths to you though you may be under the delusion otherwise.
1 Corinthians 2:14 _ But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
@Alan#1547,
Brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus, I am sorry to disappoint you that my beloved opponent seems ready to for-close our discussion. Evidently he has no answer to the challenge I hurled against him, I am not happy of this development especially of the behavior he had shown, I did not expect him to be vindictive calling names who was not involved in our discussion. It is alright with me to be called liar that is understandable, because that is to be expected for an opponent bewildered and incoherent to continue, but I believe the listeners in this Mary forum knows well who among us speak of the truth. I rest my endeavor of my mission defending my/our beloved Lady to the glory of our God Almighty and through Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior. Amen!
Jesus king of mercy I trust in you.
Ave Maria!
@Alan #1546,
I have missed this #1546, before I officially close my discussion I feel it is my responsibility to finish off the remaining rubbish argument of my beloved opponent, Sir Alan Almeida.
I am suppose to rest and be content on a sideline but your foolishness utterance about the Law of Moses (Leviticus 12:6-8; and Lk.2:22) is a proof of man who did not know his Bible. You are still smarting of your knowledge of the Scripture but I tell you frankly you are totally ignorant and un-spiritually discerned person.
The Blessed Virgin Mary is not covered by the Law of Moses, why? Because God Himself exempted Her when St. Paul declared and justified it in Romans 6:14; “For sin will have no dominion over you (applicable to Mary), since you are not under the Law (Moses) but under the ‘grace’. See, how polluted your mind is!
Jesus King of mercy I trust in you.
Ave Maria!
alan, thank you for everything i’ve tried to incounter this peoples but i cannot because they hold the thruth. but you & your friends are easy for me to inter because you’re in my side keep it up my friend.
Friends in Christ Jesus
Prayer is a loving relationship with God.
God is everywhere throughout his creation.And he is in human kind – sinner as well as saint.
But as I state we must have faith in God and love Him.In fact that is a wide definition of what authentic prayer is! A definition which confirms that we can pray to Mary and I can ask you to pray for me to God and also Mary.For if God was not present in Mary and in sinners and saints none would exist.
Of course there are two states of God’s ‘presence’.For any thing to exist God has to be present within.The other presence is ‘grace’ which exists in those lovers of God by the presence of the Holy Spirit.
Also as SINCERE AND AUTHENTIC members of the Mystical Body of Christ who is LOVE we also are ‘love’ and as love the contact between us is God’s presence via the Holy Spirit.Thus, Mary, as a member and via Jesus the ‘Mother’ of Christ’s Mystical Body CAN LEGITIMATELY be spoken too,requested of and consulted because God is in us and we are in God.
Thus to reiterate: because God is Love and we are Members of His Body we can pray to Mary and pray for each other because prayer is a loving relationship between God and His Mystical Body- the Church-of whom Mary is the God appointed Mother.Therefore it is all a matter of ‘love’ and if we are all authentic lovers of LOVE who is GOD there is no barrier to communial requesting or praying to Mary if we are authentic ‘members’ of the Mystical Body of Christ- who is LOVE.
1546
Alan,
No contradiction at all!
Mary is the CO-OPERATOR with God- because God willed it.And as creation from the beginning experienced the gift of ‘free will’ God via Gabriel requested Mary to become his co-worker.
And she freely agreed!But she was free to say ‘no’.
1544-
Alan:
As I said before one can lead a horse to water but cannot make it drink.
You are beyond debating with.Look at your contributions of the past with its anti-Christian sentiment.Including your rejection of the ‘TRUTH’ although as they say in parts of the world ‘even a blind person could see it’.
But,perhaps,you are so involved with your illogicall hatred of the Church founded by the Word of God that you have no savvy or you are a victim of the father of lies?
There is no contradiction or difference between the commandments of God adhered to by Catholics and whose Church in fact is the vehicle of you and I knowing them.For as history confirms the Bible is the willed truth of God and his New Testament plus the Old lies at the heart of the one and only Church which Jesus established upon Peter.
May I also say that language is a beautiful gift of Our Creator but as you confirm it canbe used against the Giver.Thus, please reflect upon the the fact that a farm labourer can refer to the working instrument in his use by different terms.So can reference to the 10 Commandments as long as the essence of the words used adhere to the ‘truth’.For example, there are parts of the planet of English usuage where a ‘spade’ is called a spade as well as a ‘digger’.And other parts ‘an earth opener’.
Christine Marie (#1550):
You get the gong again. Your interpretation of Romans 6:14 is skewed. No matter how you try to project your lies received from your roman catholic church, it will not succeed.
What does it mean to be “under the law”? The apostle Paul says that we are “not under law but under grace” (Romans 6:14). “Sin is the transgression of the law” (I John 3:4, KJV), and every human being who has ever lived—except Jesus Christ—has sinned (Romans 3:23). Once the knowledge of the law comes, there is no excuse, and the law condemns all who break it to eternal death. Paul personifies the law as the instrument that points the finger of condemnation at each of us: “I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died” (Romans 7:9). Therefore, to be “under the law” means to be “under the condemnation of the law.” And only Jesus who is God as per John 1:14. This means Mary has been also redeemed under grace by Jesus Christ who is God. See also Ephesians 2:8-9. We are not redeemed from the curse of the law and sin by Mary or thru her which is foolishness even einstein would have torn off his hair. This are all figment of Roman Catholic imaginations.
Mary the mother of Jesus like all faithful jewish women dutifully did what was required of her as per jewish customs. It is a custom to circumcise male child after 8 days and Mary did this wholeheaterdly. Now what I see are roman catholics like Christine Marie, Liam and others ae trying to re-write biblical history. You people are in jeopardy for twisting the scriptures just like how the “cults” do.
———————
Liam Coman (#1553):
Mary is the CO-OPERATOR …
Ho Ho Ho. This is another doctrine that has magically come out Liam Comain, the self styled leader of Pagan Rome. Really pity. Show me where can I find it is explicitly written that Mary is CO-Operator? Or may be the counterfeit roman Catholic mary is really a SMOOTH OPERATOR :)
—————–
Liam (#1554):
You can surely draw docile horses to falsely drink the poison instead of water. And that is where you and those of your kind are misled. Anti Christian sentiment? First of all the Roman Church is not even Christian. So What;s your point?
Below are the statements of the various RC Popes. Is this how a Christian church is supposed to project itself? As Liam claims the RC church is christian?
Whoever is separated from the Church is united to an adulteress – Pope Leo XIII
Only Catholics can be considered Christians – Pope Pius VI D. 1500
Heretics such as Protestants, Jews, and Muslims are completely separated from the Body of Christ – Pope Eugene IV
Catholics must anathematize (condemn to hell) all heretics – Pope St. Martin 1
It is not against the will of God to burn heretics – Pope Leo X
Protestants have not the Trinity, life or salvation. – Pope Leo XIII
Outside the Church there is no true worship of God – Pope Gregory XVI
Non-Catholic worship is a disgrace and forbidden – Pope Clement V
The State must forbid non-Catholic religions – Pius IX
To be Christian, one must believe in the Papacy – Pius VI
One is not the child of God the Father, unless he takes the Church for his mother – Leo XIII
Whoever is outside the Catholic Church is not our brother. – Pope Leo XII
Outside the Church there is absolutely no salvation. – Pope Leo X
Heretics are the gates of Hell – Pope Vigilius
Ecumenism can meet with no kind of approval among Catholics – Pope Pius XI
To foster ecumenism is to reject the true religion – Pope Pius XI
Civil authority must be subject to the Church’s authority – Pope Boniface VIII
Those who die in mortal sin are destined for Hell – Pope Benedict XII
Only Catholics worship God – Pope Gregory XVI
The Catholic Church condemns all contrary opinions – Pope Eugene IV
It is obvious that Jesus established a Church so that when he returned to Heaven it acted upon his behalf(Holy Scripture Confirms This )by fulfilling his will.
Of course, Alan, contends that he is the person that Jesus established his Church upon.Thus I would like to know where it is based and its membership number.Also the date when it received the title Catholic and as its present human leader does he like the name Pope conferred on him.
Of course he may be using other names or titles at present for holy tradition produces its fruit just as holy scripture produces and confirms the fruit of the 1st Pope.
Very hard to believe and understand but the personal interpretations offered by him tends to confirm the basic neccessity of the role of tradition.After all he was not given the name which he received after decades of church growth when he was inaugurated and later when that part of scripture was written down.
1558:
Now,Alan,as a self confessed pope you are confirming the importance of the need for the Sacrament of Confession bestowed upon his followers by Jesus.
The above comments akin to your own comment that implied as a Catholic I belong to the church of the Devil(or whatever term that you wish to use)surely is against Our Creator who is Love and requires love from us as his followers.As John of The Cross said if there is no love put love and you will find love.Very good advice for us.
Now the quotes used above by you are personal expressions of human beings(IF THEY ARE TRUE)and just as I and you during this debate have fallen into sinning by some remark or other confirms our weakness as humans.And our need for pardon.
But the remarks above do not represent the opinion of the Catholic Church founded by Jesus.If all true or a few are they are personal and not Church doctrine.Which reminds me of what we humans are capable of and especially those at the top.For even the 1st Pope of his Church denied Jesus 3 times.And another of his close associates Judas betrayed Jesus.Popes are human like ourselves and can sin.
In your earlier contributions you attacked Christ’s Church via his Mother,Mary,but now apparently you are changing tatics by attacking the Popes for their alleged verbal sins and weaknesses.But then perhaps you believe that you are not guilty of sins.
I have been praying for a unjust that was done to my son.I am a spiritual person, and for the first time I feel tired, almost defeated by the devil that reign in this upside down 2012 world. law inforcement and correctional facilities, those representing us in public offices, are failing us citizens .I have given of myself voluntarly for over 20 years to fight for justice for others, now I cannot find help myself.I am a spiritual person and for the first time i feel alone. pray for me and justice for my son. God bless
Dear Sil,
God says in Isaiah 41: 10 “Fear thou not; for I am with thee: be not dismayed; for I am thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness.”
This is a promise for you… He is always with you. Nothing can overcome you. Nothing/nobody can pluck you from the tree of life that God has grafted you in. Take heed… Leave your problems to God, allow him to work on your behalf and you take rest in him…
Step away from the things that occupy your mind… Fill yourself with God’s word… Sing praises to his name… Let your heart and mind be immersed in his love. Fall into the abyss of his love and get lost in his love… Then the peace that surpasses all understanding will fill you…
The remarkable true story of the miraculous intercession of the Virgin Mary in 1944 to prisoner Claude Newman of Mississippi
-The Virgin Mary appears in a series of visions through the intercession of the Miraculous Medal and converts two men on death row.
By: Glenn Dallaire
Claude Newman was an African American man who was born on December 1, 1923 to Willie and Floretta (Young) Newman in Stuttgart, Arkansas. In 1928, Claude’s father Willie takes Claude and his older brother away from their mother for unknown reasons, and they are brought to their grandmother, Ellen Newman, of Bovina, Warren County, Mississippi.
In 1939, Claude’s beloved grandmother, Ellen Newman, marries a man named Sid Cook. Soon Sid becomes sexually abusive toward Ellen, which deeply angers Claude. In 1940, Claude works as a farmhand on Ceres Plantation in Bovina, Mississippi. The plantation is owned by a wealthy landowner named U.G. Flowers, and Sid Cook was born and raised on this plantation. One biographer also has Claude getting married also in 1940 at age 17 to a young woman of the same age.
On Dec.19, 1942, Claude is apparently still very angered by Sid’s abusive treatment towards his grandmother Ellen, and egged on by dominant friend named Elbert Harris, Claude lies in waiting at Sid Cook’s house (Sid Cook and Ellen Newman have since seperated). Claude shoots Sid as he enters, killing him, and takes his money, then flees to his mothers house in Little Rock, AR., arriving on Dec 20th.
Claude is arrested and sent to prison on death row
In January 1943, Claude is apprehended in Arizona and is returned to Vicksburg, Mississippi and makes a coerced confession on Jan. 13. Despite protests of Claude’s lawyer Harry K. Murray, his confession is admitted as evidence, and he is found guilty by jury, and is initially sentenced to die in the electric chair on May 14, 1943. Later an appeal to retry the case is rejected by State Attorney General and he is rescheduled to be executed on January 20, 1944.
Claude receives the Miraculous Medal of the Blessed Virgin Mary
The majority of the information that will now be presented comes from a tape recording of a radio show interview of Father O’Leary- a priest who came to know Claude very well during Claude’s imprisionment.
While Claude was in jail awaiting execution, he shared a cell-block with four other prisoners. One night, the five men were sitting around talking and eventually the conversation ran out. During this time, Claude noticed a medal on a string around one of the other prisoner’s neck. Curious, he asked the other prisoner what the medal was. The young prisoner was a Catholic, but he apparently did not know (or did not want to talk) about the medal, and seemingly embarrassed, he appeared angry and suddenly took the medal off from around his own neck and threw it on the floor at Claude’s feet with a curse and a cuss, telling him to “take the thing”. Claude picked up the medal, and after looking it over, he placed it around his own neck, although he had no idea whose image it was on the medal; to him it was simply a trinket, but for some reason he felt attracted to it, and wanted to wear it.
The Blessed Virgin Mary appears to Claude in a vision
(The Icon to the left is of “Mary the Teacher†© Copyright 2004 by Brother Claude Lane, OSB, Mount Angel Abbey. This beautiful icon is a representation of the amazing facts below. Click here for more info about Brother Claude’s iconography.)
During the night while sleeping on top of his cot, he was awakened with a touch upon his wrist. Awakening with a start, there stood, as Claude told Father O’Leary afterwards, ‘the most beautiful Woman that God ever Created’.
At first he was quite frightened, not knowing what to make of this extraordinary beautiful glowing Woman. The Lady soon calmed Claude down, and then said to
him, “If you would like Me to be your Mother, and you would like to be My child, send for a priest of the Catholic Church.”
And after saying these words She suddenly disappeared.
Excited, Claude immediately started to yell “a ghost, a ghost”, and started screaming that he wanted a Catholic priest.
Father Robert O’Leary SVD (1911-1984), the priest who tells the story, was called first thing the next morning. Upon arrival he went to see Claude who told him of what had happened the night before. Deeply impressed by the events, Claude, along with the other four men in his cell-block, asked for religious instruction in the Catholic faith.
Claude and some of the other prisoners receive instruction in the Catholic faithFather O’Leary returned to the prison the next day to begin instruction for the prisoners. It was then that the priest learned that Claude Newman could neither read nor write at all. The only way he could tell if a book was right-side-up was if the book contained a picture. Claude told him that he had never been to school, and Father O’Leary soon discovered that his ignorance of religion was even more profound. He knew practically nothing about religion or the Christian faith. He knew that there was a God, but he did not know that Jesus was God. And so Claude began receiving instructions, and the other prisoners helped him with his studies.
After a few days, two of the religious Sisters from Father O’Leary’s parish-school obtained permission from the warden to come to the prison. They wanted to meet Claude and hear his remarkable story, and they also wanted to visit the women in the prison. Soon, on another floor of the prison, the Sisters began to teach some of the women-prisoners the catechism as well.
A heavenly lesson about Confession
Several weeks passed, and it came time when Father O’Leary was going to give instructions about the Sacrament of Confession. The Sisters too sat in on the class. The priest said to the prisoners, “Ok boys, today I’m going to teach you about the Sacrament of Confession.”
Claude said, “Oh, I know about that! The Lady told me that when we go to confession we are kneeling down not before a priest, but we’re kneeling down by the Cross of Her Son. And that when we are truly sorry for our sins, and we confess our sins, the Blood He shed flows down over us and washes us free from all sins.”
Hearing Claude say this, Father O’Leary and the Sisters sat stunned with their mouths wide open. Claude thought they were angry and said, “Oh don’t be angry, don’t be angry, I didn’t mean to blurt it out.”
The priest said, “We’re not angry Claude. We are just surprised. You have seen Her again?”
Claude replied, “Come around the cell-block away from the others.”
Proof that the Blessed Virgin Mary was appearing to Claude
When they were alone, Claude said to the priest, “She told me that if you doubted me or
showed hesitancy, I was to remind you that lying in a ditch in Holland in 1940, you made a vow to Her which She’s still waiting for you to keep.”
And, Father O’Leary recalls, “Claude then told me precisely what the vow was.”
Claude’s revelation absolutely convinced Father O’Leary that Claude was telling the truth about his visions of Our Lady. The promise Fr. O’Leary made to Our Lady in 1940 from a ditch in Holland (the proof Claude gave the priest that Our Lady really was appearing to him) was this: that when he could, he would build a church in honor of Our Lady’s Immaculate Conception. He did just that in 1947. He had been transferred to Clarksdale, Mississippi in 1945 when a group African American Catholic laymen asked to have a church built there. The Bishop of Natchez, Mississippi had been sent $5000 by Archbishop Cushing of Boston for the “Negro missions.†The Bishop and Father O’Leary commissioned the church of the Immaculate Conception to be built, and it is still there today (photo left)
Father O’Leary and Clark then returned to the catechism class on Confession. And Claude kept telling the other prisoners, “You should not be afraid to go to confession. You’re really telling God your sins, not the priestâ€
Then Claude said,
“You know, the Lady said that Confession is something like a telephone. We talk through the priest to God, and God talks back to us through the priest.”
A heavenly lesson about Holy Communion
About a week later, Father O’Leary was preparing to teach the class about the Blessed
Sacrament. The Sisters were again present for this lesson too. Claude indicated that the Lady had also taught him about the Eucharist, and he asked if he could tell the priest what She said.
Fr. O’Leary agreed immediately. Claude related, “The Lady told me that in Communion, I will only see what looks like a piece of bread. But She told me that It is really and truly Her Son, and that He will be with me just as He was with Her before He was born in Bethlehem. She told me that I should spend my time like She did during Her lifetime with Him– in loving Him, adoring Him, thanking Him, praising Him and asking Him for blessings. I shouldn’t be distracted or bothered by anybody else or anything else, but I should spend those few minutes in my thoughts alone with Him.”
Claude is received into the Catholic church and scheduled to be executed
As the weeks progressed, eventually they finished the catechism instructions and Claude and the other prisoners were received into the Catholic Church. Soon afterwards the time came for Claude to be executed. He was to be executed at five minutes after twelve, midnight, on January 20, 1944.
The sheriff, named Williamson, asked him, “Claude, you have the privilege of a last request. What do you want?”
“Well,” said Claude, “all of my friends are all shook up. The jailer is all shook up. But you don’t
understand. I’m not going to die; only this body. I’m going to be with Her. So, then I would like to have a party”
“What do you mean?†asked the sheriff.
“A party!” said Claude. “Will you give Father O’Leary permission to bring in some cakes and ice cream and will you allow the prisoners on the second floor to be freed in the main room so that we can all be together and have a party?”
“Somebody might attack Father,” cautioned the warden.
Claude turned to the men who were standing by and said, “Oh no they won’t, right fellas?”
The warden consented and posted additional guards for the party. So, Father O’Leary visited a wealthy patron of the parish, and she generously supplied the ice cream and cake, and everyone enjoyed the party.
Afterwards, because Claude had requested it, they made a Holy Hour, praying especially for Claude and for all of their souls. Fr. O’Leary brought prayer books from the Church, and they all said together the Stations of the Cross, and made a Holy Hour, without the Blessed Sacrament.
As the time neared for Claude’s execution, the men were put back in their cells. The priest then went to the chapel to get the Blessed Sacrament so that he could give Claude Holy Communion in the moment before his execution.
Father O’Leary returned to Claude’s cell. Claude knelt on one side of the bars, the priest
knelt on the other, and they prayed together as the clock ticked toward Claude’s execution.
A two week stay of execution is granted
Fifteen minutes before the execution, sheriff Williamson came running up the stairs shouting,
“Reprieve, Reprieve, the Governor has given a two-week reprieve!”
Claude had not been aware that the sheriff and the District Attorney were trying to get a stay of execution for Claude to save his life. But when Claude found out, he started to cry.
The priest and the sheriff assumed Claude’s reaction was that of joy because he was not going to be executed. However Claude said, “But you don’t understand! If you ever saw Her face, and looked into Her eyes, you wouldn’t want to live another day!”
Claude then continued, “What have I done wrong these past weeks that God would refuse me my going home?”
Father O’Leary then testified that Claude sobbed as one who was completely brokenhearted.
Bewildered, the sheriff then left the room. The priest remained and Claude eventually quieted down, then Father O’Leary gave Claude Holy Communion. Afterwards Claude said,
“Why Father? Why must I still remain here for two weeks?”
Claude generously sacrifices himself in an offering for a fellow prisoner
Father O’Leary then had a sudden inspiration. He reminded Claude about James Hughs, a white prisoner in the same jail who hated Claude intensely. This prisoner had led a horribly immoral life, and like Claude he too was sentenced to be executed for murder. James was raised a Catholic, but now he was a reprobate, and rejected God and all things Christian.
Father O’Leary then said “Maybe Our Blessed Mother wants you to offer this denial of being with Her for his conversion.” And the priest continued, “Why don’t you offer to God every
moment that you are seperated from your heavenly Mother for this prisoner, so that he will not be seperated from God for all eternity.”
Claude thought for a moment, then agreed, and he asked Father O’Leary to teach him the words to make the offering. Father O’Leary complied, and he later testified that from that moment on the only two people on earth who knew about this personal offering were Claude and himself, because it was a private matter between God, the Blessed Mother, Claude and himself.
A few hours later (still on the morning after his reprieve of execution) Fr. O’Leary came once again to visit Claude, and Claude said to the priest, “James hated me before, but oh Father, how he hates me now!” (This was because James had heard about Claude’s reprieve and was jealous) To encourage him the good priest said, “Well, perhaps that’s a good sign.”
Claude’s execution
During his two weeks reprieve, Claude generously offered his sacrifice and prayers for his fellow prisoner, the reprobate James Hughs . Two weeks later, Claude was finally put to death by the electric chair on Feb.4, 1944.
Concerning Claude’s holy death Father O’Leary testified: “I’ve never seen anyone go to his death as joyfully and happily. Even the official witnesses and the newspaper reporters were amazed. They said they couldn’t understand how anyone could go and sit in the electric chair while at the same time actually beaming with happiness.”
Claude’s death notice was printed in the Vicksburg Evening News on the day of his execution Feb. 4, 1944 (see photo left). His last words to Father O’Leary were, “Father, I will remember you. And whenever you have a request, ask me, and I will ask Her.”
The miraculous conversion & execution of prisoner James Hughs
Three months later, on May 19, 1944, the white man named James Hughs–the who Claude had offered his sacrifice for, was to be executed. Father O’Leary said, “This man was the filthiest, most immoral person I had ever come across. His hatred for God and for everything spiritual defied description.”
He would not allow a priest or any clergyman in his cell. Just before his execution, the county doctor pleaded with him to at least kneel down and say the “Our Father” before the sheriff would come for him. The prisoner spat in the doctor’s face.
When he was strapped into the electric chair, the sheriff said to him, “If you have something to say, say it now.”
The condemned man started to blaspheme.
All of a sudden he stopped speaking, and his eyes became fixed on the corner of
the room, and his face turned to one of absolute horror. Suddenly he screamed in terror–a horrible scream that shocked everyone present.
Turning to the sheriff, he then said, “Sheriff, get me a priest!”
Now, Father O’Leary had been in the room because Mississippi law at that time required a clergyman to be present at executions. The priest, however, had hidden himself behind some reporters because the condemned man had threatened to curse God if he saw a clergyman.
Upon calling for a priest, Father O’Leary immediately went to the condemned man. The room was cleared of everyone else, and the priest heard the man’s confession. The man said he had been a Catholic, but turned away from his religion when he was 18 because of his immoral life. He confessed all of his sins with deep repentance and intense fervor.
While everyone was returning to the room, the sheriff asked the priest, “Father, what made him change his mind?”
“I don’t know ” said Father O’Leary, “I didn’t ask him.”
The sheriff said, “Well, I will never sleep tonight if I don’t ask him.”
The Sheriff went to the condemned man and asked, “Son, what changed your mind?”
The prisoner responded, “Remember that black man Claude – the one whom I hated so much? Well he’s standing there [and he pointed], over in that corner. And behind him with one hand on each shoulder is the Blessed Virgin Mary. And Claude said to me, ‘I offered my death in union with Christ on the Cross for your salvation. She has obtained for you this gift of seeing your place in Hell if you do not repent.’
I have been shown my place in Hell, and that’s why I screamed.”
James Hughs was executed as scheduled, but the heavenly appearence of our Blessed Mother with Claude Newman and the subsequent vision of hell had instantly converted his soul in the last moments of his life. With the help of the Blessed Virgin Mary, Father O’Leary had taught Claude to unite himself with the suffering of Jesus by offering his own sufferings to Him, just as we all can do for others, and Claude’s suffering helped to pay the price for James’ remarkable last minute conversion and repentance. Therefore we must never under-estimate the the value of our suffering joined with that of Jesus Christ’s, and also the power and loving intercession of Our Blessed Mother in heaven.
O’ Mary conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to Thee!
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I am very grateful to Brother Claude Lane OSB, of the Mount Angel Abbey, in St. Benedict, Oregon for the following information and chronology of the life of Claude Newman (Note: Br. Claude is the artist who created the beautiful icon of the Virgin Mary and Claude Newman in this article. Click here for more information about Brother Claude’s iconography.)
Chronology of the Life of Claude Newman
1923- Dec.1, Claude Newman is born to Willie and Floretta Young Newman in Stuttgart, Arkansas.
1928- Claude and his older brother are removed from their mother by Willie, who takes them to be raised by their grandmother, Ellen Newman, in Bovina, Mississippi, east of Vicksburg.
1930- Six year old Claude appears in the Federal census, living with his Grandmother in Warren County. They reside on the Ike Henry place.
Late 1930s- Claude spends time in the CCC (Civilian Conservation Corp)
c.1939- Claude’s grandmother, Ellen Newman, marries Sid Cook. Soon he becomes sexually abusive toward Ellen, which angers Claude.
c.1940-41- Claude works on Ceres Plantation in Bovina, owned by U. G. Flowers. Sid Cook was born and raised on this place. If Claude Newman has married, it was not registered in Warren Co. Perhaps he was married in another county, or parish of Louisiana. In any case, he is no longer with her by Dec. 19, 1942.
1942- Dec.19, Egged on by dominant friend Elbert Harris, Claude lies in waiting in Sid Cook’s house (Cook and Ellen Newman have since seperated). Claude shoots Sid as he enters, and takes his money, then flees to his mothers house in Little Rock, AR., arriving on the 20th. First time she has seen him since he was five. She is now re-married to a man named Rogers, who finds Claude a job. Claude now goes by the name ‘Ralph’.
Jan 1943- Claude is apprehended in Arizona and is returned to Vicksburg, Mississippi and makes a coerced confession on Jan. 13. Despite protests of Claude’s lawyer Harry K. Murray, confession is admitted as evidence. He is found guilty by an all white jury. He is sentenced to die in the electric chair on May 14, 1943. Appeal to re-try the case is rejected by State Attorney General. Sid Cook’s patron, U. G. Flowers, has too much influence.
Jan.20, 1944 is given as new date for execution.
1943-44 Sometime late in 1943, Claude puts on a miraculous medal, begins having visions of the Virgin Mary. She encourages him to find a priest and become a Catholic. Fr. Robert O’Leary, SVD of St. Mary’s for Colored, and Catholic County Doctor Augustine Podesta, minister to him.
1944- Jan.16, Fr. O’Leary baptizes Claude in jail with the name ‘Claude Jude’, with Sr. Benna Henken, SSpS standing as his sponsor. Just before Claude is to be executed on Jan. 20, a stay of execution of two weeks arrives. He is finally put to death on Feb.4, 1944. Claude has his favorite dessert, coconut pie, on the night before he dies. His body is buried in the historic African American “Beulah cemetary†in Vicksburg, MS. His death notice was printed in the Vicksburg Evening News on the day of his execution, Feb. 4, 1944.
A few months later on May 19, 1944, Claude appears in a vision along with the Blessed Mother, to his fellow inmate James Hughs – a white man who he had prayed and sacrificed for in the two weeks prior to his death, and who on this day is himself seated on the electric chair. Seeing the vision, the James immediately repents of his sins and is saved from eternal damnation, just moments before his execution.
1947- Fulfilling his previous promise to the Virgin Mary made in a ditch in Holland, Fr, O’Leary founds Immaculate Conception Parish (for African Americans) in Clarksville, Mississippi.
1960’s- Fr. O’Leary records a testimony of Claude Newman’s Story for a radio broadcast.
1984 –Death of Fr. Robert O’Leary, SVD (1911-1984)
2001- The March 2001 issue of The Catholic Family News publishes “The True Account of Prisoner Claude Newman (1944)†by John Vennari. This article is taken from the 1960’s radio broadcast testimony by Father Robert O’Leary.
2002- While looking for information on Cardinal Newman, Br. Claude Lane of Mount Angel Abbey, happens on the miraculous story of Claude Newman.
2003- In the early summer, Br. Claude is inspired to write the icon “Mary, the Teacher†and he begins the task of researching Claude Newman’s life with initial help from Catholic Family News, along with the research of John Sharpe Sr. of Phoenix, Arizona.
12/22/2011 -Additionally Brother Claude adds: “A historian by the name of Ralph Frasca has been working on a biography for Claude Newman. He did find the identity of the white reprobate for whom Claude offered his life. His name was James Hughs, and he was electrocuted in Vicksburg on May 19, 1944. That can be added to the chronology. Interestingly, a black woman was also executed (for murder) in Vicksburg on that same day, named Mildred Johnson. She, too, had become a Catholic through the ministrations of the nuns from the African American parish of St. Mary’s. These last two findings were the work of Mr. Frasca, and can, as I said, be added to the chronology.” –Brother Claude Lane, OSB
O’ Mary conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to Thee!
Ave Maria!