Why should we pray to Virgin Mary? The reasons are many.
Why do Catholics pray to Mother Mary? Is Rosary really powerful?
The intercession of Mother Mary is very powerful as Jesus cannot neglect His mothers commands.This can be proved by the first miracle Jesus did at the wedding at Cana. – (John 2:1-11). Mother Mary told Jesus “They have no more wine.” And what was the final result? He turned water into wine.
In “The Poem of the Man-God” by Maria Valtorta, she says that Jesus told her about this incident as “I did it for Mary”. This proves that the intercession of Mother Mary is very very strong.
Mother Mary was blessed with Holy Spirit abundantly. We can see this as we read “At that time Mary got ready and hurried to a town in the hill country of Judea, where she entered Zechariah’s home and greeted Elizabeth. When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.” (Luke 1:39-41) ; just by Virgin Mary’s greeting.
Listen to the talk from Apologetics on Mary, Purgatory and The Bible
What the angels thought on this matter:-
When angel appeared before Zechariah,father of John, angel just greets him by his name ,nothing more although he was “upright in the sight of God, observing all the Lord’s commandments and regulations blamelessly.” – (Luke 1:6)
When angel appeared before Joseph, the greeting was like this: “an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.” – (Matthew 1:20). Angel greeted him ‘son of david’, thats all.
Now let us see how did the angel greet Virgin Mary. It goes like this: “The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.” (Luke 1:28). See the difference….
Also read the article Mary, The Mystical Rose
(1) SACRED SCRIPTURE is the Speech of God as it is written down by believers under the influence of the Holy Spirit.
(2) HOLY TRADITION is the Word Of God which has been entrusted to the initial apostles and those who followed over 2,000 years of Catholicism.
Both 1 and 2 are bound closely together and communicate with one another.For both flows out from the same divine well-spring,come together to form one thing,and moves towards the same goal.Together they make present in the Church and beyond the mystery of Christ.
It is important to note that those who places influence on the Bible alone ignore the scripture truth that around the whole mystery of the promised Messiah not everything was written down.That’s why when Jesus formed His 2,000 years old Catholic Church the latter does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from Holy Scripture alone.For bear in mind the 1st generation of Christians did not have a written New Testament,and the New Testament itself dmonstrates the process of living Holy Tradition. Also Jesus knew the danger of wrong interpretation and that’s why he gave the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven via Peter to the Catholic Church ensuring that what came fron the Bible and Tradition was in accord with the will of His Father.
Thus the Magisterium of His Catholic Church now mainly physically based at Rome(as it was elsewhere in the past throughout its history)when it expresses matter relating to faith and morals it is Our Lord Jesus who is speaking.
Thus,both Scripture and Tradition need each other and must be accepted and honoured with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence.
THAT IS THE WORD OF GOD!!!!!!!
Hi Sir Alan,
You have mentioned 1John 4:1-3; would you like we explore this verse and jointly identify to whom this verse pertain to…? There is something in this verse that many of our Protestant brothers fail to notice…
Jesus king of mercy I trust in you. Ave Maria !
@Liam (#1462):
It is important to note that those who places influence on the Bible alone ignore the scripture truth that around the whole mystery of the promised Messiah not everything was written down.
For Roman Catholics – every thing is a mysterious “mystery”. However the mystery is already revealed in Christ. See Colosians 1:27 – “To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory”.
Now when you say “Bible alone ..” does that include Jesus the Son of God Himself? Of what he said in John 17:17 is fabricated? Did you know Jesus held the scriptures in higher esteem above everything else and rebuked tradition in Mark 7:13 – “Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye”.
Did you also know ..
<b1 Peter 1:18 – Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
1 Peter 1:19 – But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
You need to do you homework. Traditions are not the “requirement” to enter heaven. Bible believing Christians place their faith/belief in the scriptures alone – it is sufficient.
I don’t understand why do we worship Mother Merry when Bible forbids us from praying any of the idol. Mother Merry was like us, but more blessed then any other woman as we conceived Jesus in her womb. But this does not mean she is God, but God choose her to do so.
In one verse Jesus called her mother Woman.
Please worship the creator and not the creation. People started worshiping Saint Paul assuming he is God Zeus but then he had to clarify that he is not God but ordinary man like others. The only difference is he was more annointed but that does not make anyone God.
Please read holy Bible carefully and understand
Comment 1 and 2 says that Merry is Angel. I do not disagree with that. But where does God almighty says that pray Angels. God has never commanded to worship any angel but God himself through his only begotten son Jesus Christ.
@Liam (#1462):
It is important to note that those who places influence on the Bible alone ignore the scripture truth that around the whole mystery of the promised Messiah not everything was written down.
Please enlighten yourself by reading of the prophesied Messiah way back in the OLD Testament – Read the entire Chapter 53 of the Book of Isaiah.
So what is that whole mystery of the promised messiah that no everything was written down? Who is the ‘mysterious’ character who supplied you with false information on the mystery of the messiab?
1464-
Your last sentence is true.
And it is the reason that in our world today there are thousands of so called Churches claiming solidarity with Christ who look on the written word of The Bible as the basis and only basis of their position.
While at the same time ignoring the truth of the contents of the Bible.For as truth seeking persons are aware Jesus founded one Church.For if he had followed evangelical opinions he would have said to Peter “my Churches” rather than “my Church”.
And the Church which he founded wrote parts of the Bible before it (the Catholic Church)reached universal status and became holy scripture as a whole.
The emphasis on scripture as a whole by non-Catholics is the means used by satan throughout the ages to attack the Church and cause divisions.And many of the protestant churches founders were unaware of satanic manipulation. But it is the Catholic Church and The Bible that is the source of God’s truth.
As implied by its founder,Jesus,it has evolved for over 2.000 years and will continue because of its founder’s guarantee;”…and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it…”.
It is explicitly taught in Holy Scripture that the Bible is NOT the only source of Divine Revelation!
John ends his last Gospel telling us that everything Jesus said and did is not recorded in Holy Scripture.(Jn21:25).And Paul attests that much Christian teaching was handed down in the Holy (oral)Tradition of the Church.(2Thes2:2).
And as silently referred too in 1468 above the first estimated New Testament writing was Paul’s Letter to the Thessalonians in approximately 51 AD.
But via the oral tradition of the Catholic Church the saving Gospel and doctrine of Jesus was conveyed(cf. Acts 2:42;2 Thes 2:15).
Of course the ‘scripture alone’ believers will quote 2 Tim 3:16 to support their position:”Everything in the scripture has been divinely inspired,and it has its uses:to instruct us,to expose our errors,to correct our faults,to educate in holy living”.Now the latter inspired passage describes the great fruits of Scripture,it nowhere even infers that Scripture is the only source of salvation!For as implied above St.Paul requires the aid of tradition(2 Thes2:15)
Thus to return to the original reason for this debate that is ‘should we pray to virgin Mary’:THE MARIAN TRUTHS of the Church of Christ can be found in the sources of Divine Revelation,Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition,as safe guarded by the Magisterium of the Church founded by Jesus.
For every Marian Doctrine there is at least implicit(and some explicit) Scripture references containing the revealed seed of the doctrine(that is,the Immaculate Conception-Gen 3:15,Lk 1:28; the Assumption of Mary into Heaven- Gen 3:15;Ps131:8; Rev11:19; Rev12:1.
Also please look at Scripture especially Judas the Maccabean(2 Mac 15:11-16)confirming that the Jewiswh people had faith in the intercession of saints and angels to offer prayers at the feet of God and support them with their intercession (cf.Tob 12:12;Rev 5:8,8:3).
Thus, since the Saints are intimately united with God(and none closer than His Mother Mary)(1 Cor 13:12; 1 Jn 3:2)they all deserve our honour and veneration.
Also Paul asked for prayerful intercession from some of the disciples as confirmed by Scripture-Rom 15:30;Col 4:3; 1 Thes 5;25, AND ALSO REFERRED TO HIS PRAYERS FOR THEM- 2Thes 1:11.
And as Jesus is the Head of the Church which is His Body(of which we are members)Mary as his Mother is the Mother of his Body and as a Mother her maternal intercession rightfully has and exalted ability to bring genuine believers closser to Our Saviour.In fact Mary’s intercession started scripturally with the wedding feastof Cana-Jn2.
Truthfully and with humility I thank the Holy Spirit as the Author of Holy Scripture for conveying this truth based upon Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition via the Magisterium of His Holy Catholic Church.For like many I also once treaded the dead end roads of agnosticism and atheism but it is my conclusion that Mary brought me back to the family of God.
~~~~~~~
Under The Eye Of My Mother
Oh loving Mother
My parents helped me
To find You in my life
You remained there
Even when I
Abandoned Your Son
For You know me…
Assured of my return
As a result of
Our Father’s love
Oh Mother
It is my belief
That Jesus has placed
Me in Your care
So that You may
Fashion me according
To His pattern
For You are the instrument
Of Our Saviour and His grace
Therefore I am Your’s – all Your’s !
there’s a huge difference between the “biblical mary” – the true mother of Jesus and the “roman catholic mary” – the counterfeit of satan, masquerading as the mother of Jesus. This mysterious woman as per the reported apparitions around the world show that she emerges from caves. Historically this woman has been identified as “pagan goddess”.
There is no where in scripture that Mary the mother of Jesus emerging from caves during the life time of Jesus ministry on earth, so why now?? Is she the son of perdition’s daughter?
I believe the biblical Mary and not the roman catholic mary – the later is the deceiver of mankind.
Persons who follow this daughter of perdition are truly on the road to eternal disaster in the lake of fire.
Sacred Tradition
Catholics are always taught that God’s Word is in Scripture and apostolic Tradition. Tradition is God’s Word that has been handed down orally. The apostle Paul says: “Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle” (2 Thessalonians 2:15, KJV).
This issue is one of the fundamental differences between Roman Catholicism and Evangelical Christianity.
Evangelicals believe in the sufficiency of Scripture. “The whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary for His own glory, man’s salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or traditions of men” (Westminster Confession).
In addition to Scripture, Catholics also regard Tradition as the Word of God. “Both sacred tradition and Sacred Scripture are to be accepted and venerated with the same sense of loyalty and reverence” (Dei Verbum).
What is Tradition
The word “tradition” has several meanings; so let’s define from official Catholic writings what is meant by Tradition.
In other words, Tradition is a body of undefined teachings, apart from the Holy Scriptures, allegedly of apostolic origin, that is passed on from generation to generation through the church, and especially through Catholic bishops.
Hold the Traditions
Although 2 Thessalonians 2:15 is quoted above that teaches the about “Tradition” but a closer look reveals that the apostle Paul has something different in mind. Writing to the believers in Thessalonica, among whom he had personally laboured, he says:
The apostle Paul had preached the Gospel to the Thessalonians, and they believed the truth for their salvation. Now that he was absent, Paul exhorted them to hold on to the “traditions” he had passed on to them. These traditions, or teachings, are simply the truths of the Gospel which the apostle Paul had “handed on” to them by two means: by preaching (“by word”) and by writing (“our epistle”). There is nothing here about the perfect transmission of an undefined body of teachings through a succession of bishops.
The argument for the Catholic concept of Tradition based on 2nd Thessalonians is erroneous – it is a logical fallacy of ambiguity. The same term, the word “traditions”, is used with two different meanings. In Paul’s epistle it means one thing (the divine doctrines handed on personally by an apostle to the church); it means something entirely different in Catholic theology (namely the transmission of God’s Word from one generation to another by the church).
Our situation is radically different from that of the Thessalonian Christians in the first century. They had the privilege of welcoming a living apostle among them. They heard the apostle speak to them; we cannot do the same, simply because there are no apostles today.
Tradition Nullifies God’s Word
How then can we learn the Word of God since we are living so many centuries after the apostles? The Lord has preserved and transmitted the apostolic message in the New Testament. Therein we find an infallible record of the apostolic traditions, their message, the gospel. In the same manner, the prophets of old preached God’s Word to the Jewish people in their generation. Later generations had access to their message only in the books of the Old Testament Scriptures – and nothing else. The Jews were not supposed to find the Word of God in the Holy Scriptures as well as some form of oral tradition. In fact the Lord Jesus warned them about this very thing in Mark 7.
How serious are these words of our Lord; how we ought to give them our full attention! We are bound to repeat the same mistakes of the Pharisees unless we take heed. Christ warns us plainly of the tendency of man’s religious inventions to supplant the Word of God. Three times he charged the Pharisees: “Laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men.” “You reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition.” “Making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down.” The origin of their traditions was lost in antiquity, but these old traditions came to be regarded as authoritative. The Pharisees expected everyone to obey, and they were offended because the disciples did not keep these regulations. The Scriptures were interpreted by their traditions, and so, in practice, tradition superseded the written Word. The end result was disastrous. Like the addition of a small amount of poison to a glass of water, so is the addition of human tradition to God Word. The Word of God is rendered “of no effect” — void and useless to true spirituality.
Human or Divine Origin
“But,” the Catholic apologist protests, “Sacred Tradition should not be confused with mere traditions of men. Jesus condemned traditions if they were contrary to God’s commands, but He never condemned Sacred Tradition.”
He never commended Sacred Tradition either! Jesus often referred to the Scriptures as the Word of God, but He never promoted tradition of any sort to an equal status of the written Word. If effect the Roman Catholic magisterium is repeating the same error of the Pharisees; they have exalted certain doctrines and practices which had their origin in the post-apostolic period, and pronounced them as authoritative and binding on all believers.
Go back to 2nd Thessalonians for a moment. What evidence do you have that Paul’s “oral” traditions refer to doctrines other than the Gospel truth he mentioned in the previous verse? Can the Catholic bishops give us one single sentence Paul said in any one of his sermons? What evidence do you have that Paul’s oral teaching included such things as papal universal jurisdiction, the Marian dogmas, veneration of statues and auricular confession? The words of the holy fathers are claimed to witness to the presence of Sacred Tradition — well, what solid evidence is there from the early fathers of those doctrines?
The Pharisees censured the disciples of Christ because they ignored their venerated “tradition of the elders.” Today Roman bishops do the same to Christians because we would not follow their “Sacred Traditions” — they curse us for not saluting their images; sternly warn us that we stand condemned and have fallen away from the divine faith because we do not believe their novel Marian dogmas, and exclude our communities from the universal church because we do not submit to the bishop of the capital city of the old Roman Empire.
It would be much better for you as a Catholic to question whether your church has fallen into the same trap as the Pharisees of old. For if “Sacred Tradition” is nothing but doctrines of human origin rather than the holy Word of God, the consequences are dreadful. Remember God’s warning: “In vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.”
@Alan #1470,
Oh Boy! Now I can say with finality that you are totally on the left side corner of the world, where did you base your statement about Mary? I thought you evangelicals are main proponent of “Scripture aloneâ€. Give me one verse to prove your malicious imputation of the mother of Jesus.
When you said you believe the “biblical Mary and not the roman catholic mary – the later is the deceiver of mankind.†Are you playing game with us? Who do you think you are fooling? The Mary that we referring to is the same Mary that we are discussing in the Bible, you cannot just circumvent what we are discussing to let me lose sight of you.
You have so many unfounded accusations of Mary on the other link do you think I will let you get away with it. I will deal with you later on that issue…
I have invited you we both expound the one verse you have quoted (1Peter4:1-3) so you may understand very well the exact meaning of it hoping to lead you and extract you to perdition. But you chose to ignore my offer and now again you are playing words with us by way of maligning the mother of our Savior.
Your wild imaginations against blessed Mary would surely lead you be sorry later for the rest of your life in judgment day.
The more you attacked the mother of Jesus the more you get nearer in the gates of Hell. You may think you bait me with my lip by my remark towards you but I am acting charitably to remind you of the danger of your position right now.
Reflect and re-visit your writings against Her, maybe you may realize in the end that your action is not consonant being called Christian. You have shown to us very unchristian like manner.
Jesus king of mercy I trust in you.
Ave Maria!
Joh 12:48
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Rom 2:16
In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Read the above verses again and again….
Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Preach the Gospel – NOT vatican lies
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Hear Jesus words… not man made theories
Rom 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Hearing by the word of God.Not by Vatican lies
and finally read this
Isa 29:13
Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
Christe.. Hope the below verses will clear your doubts about the ‘judgement based on what ? tradition+scripture or only scripture
John 12:48
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Rom 2:16
In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Christine Marie (#1472):
You are just overwhelmed by sentiments, and that is quite understandable because of the feminine angle you thread ignorantly upon rather seperating “truth” from fiction.
Persons like yourself and Liam say that the Catholic church is the one true church founded by Jesus Christ, the church which the gates of hell will not prevail against. But a close looks its an apostate church that is preaching lies.
Lets take one example: The “tradition” teaching of the catholic church officially teaches that Mary was conceived “immaculately” without the stain of original sin, WHERE AS the Bible which is the Word of God says its ONLY Jesus the Son of God was conceived without sin while the rest of mankind (Mary including) have “sinned”. So how come Liam and yourself can claim the Catholic church to be the one true church established bu Christ can “stand” on two opposing different viewpoints or teachings? Surely one has to be false, isn’t it?? Surely because of the false teachings on Mary, the Catholic church will SURELY stand against the gates of Hell because it is an apostate church belonging to satan.
Can you justify the truth regarding the woman allegedly called Mary emerging from caves? Many Catholic pictures of Mary and Saints are shown with the “moon” circle hovering over their heads. What does that signify? Should we discuss this?
You appear to have deceptive behavior. You want to discuss all the what the “scriptures” say, but when questions on the RC Mary and the mass is brought to fore, you conveniently go into a quite silent mode and make as it is not the issue.
Please do not lie under a cloud of superstition but instead come to the light of truth only Jesus can provide.
God Bless.
1474
The Son of God was born from the womb of an immaculate virgin in a ‘stable’.All that God created including caves as well as stables(indirectly) are his work and involves his will.And that includes you, Alan,and Babu…
As stated, above, Mary was preserved from sin as part of God’s loving plan to destroy satan and sin for it was the 1st sin- disobedience of God’s will by Adam and Eve – which is the cause of the world’s problems.
In fact God opposes sin so much that he sent his only Son to destroy it via his crucifixion and death on Calvary.Thus, with so much opposition to ‘SIN’ and the price Our Father had to pay-‘his Word’- how can any human mind accept that his Son would be allowed to be conceived and born of a sinful virgin? Surely the fact that he worked a miracle- Jesus being born in a ‘virgin’s womb’- confirms that ‘holiness itself'(Our Creator) would ensure the the source of Our Saviour’s humanity
would not be of sin or tainted with the devil’s brew!In fact if Mary had been of sin there would have been no redemption!!!!!!!
Those who oppose the latter truth are saying that our sinless God made use of a person stained with sin to redeem humanity.That is,in a way using ‘sin’ to defeat ‘sin’.Satanic stupidity!
In fact this miss-use of Holy Scripture confirms the necessity of Holy Tradition.For we must bear in mind that the written word of scripture is but tradition written down.Thus, this debate which has moved beyond its original cause of being has had contributors not aware of the need that Jesus saw for one Church to ensure that his truth would forever prevail.
Thank you my Lord for your wisdom and foresight!
And, dear Mary, please intercede with Our Father for those who are so caught in the depths of sin that they deny your sinlessness.YOU! who was preserved from sin-the cause of your Son’s death- because of that great offeringof himself which you witnessed on Calvary.
Liam (#1476):
Please don’t post lies of your private intepretation.
God accepts us as we are sinners when we come to him in humility and asking forgiveness. That is why the scriptures state while we were yet sinners Christ dies for us- He did not say to mankins -“cleam you sins” than i will die on the cross for you all. Mary the mother of Jesus is a “sinner” just like the rest of mankind. If she was born without the stain of sin, then her mother would have also have to be without sinner so is ditto for her great, great, great grand-mother. Mary became set apart and forgiven when she accepted the will of God when she said – “May it be done according to thy (God’s ) will. She humbly accepted God will – as God is not a “respecter” of persons (Acts 10:34).
Mary is a mere human being enjoying the “eternal” bliss of heaven and serving God, while Liam like is still wasting his breath barking up the wrong tree where satan is busy chuckling at his foolish interpretation that has no substance whatsoever. Your “private” interpretation has no solid foundation. The fictiocious knowledge you have, has been passed on to you by those “poppish” persons who care a hoots about the eternal destination of a soul.
Liam (#1476)
Our Saviour’s humanity
would not be of sin or tainted with the devil’s brew!In fact if Mary had been of sin there would have been no redemption!!!!!!!
What does 1 Peter 1:18-19 say?? Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
Did you undesrstand that verse? We are redeemed by Mary?? What foolishness is this!!!
In relation to 1475:
PRESERVATIVE REDEMPTION
We are all sinners and we required salvation.The mother of Jesus was also redeemed.But Mary was redeemed through a ‘preservative redemption’:that is a redemption brought about through the merits of her Son on Calvary.For God is not limited to ‘time’.
And God applied this redemption at the moment of Mary being conceived in the womb of her mother.
Oviously aware of humanity’s need for redemption and of the events of the ordained forthcoming Crucifixion and Death of his Son-the Word-on Mount Calvary.But there is no way God ordained a sinful person to give birth to Jesus.Thus, as stated God preserved Mary through the merits of Jesus at her conception.That is why Gabriel said “full of grace” to Mary(Lk 1:28)when he visited her.Being ‘full of grace’Mary was sinless.Therefore her womb was immaculate and fitting to conceive Our Saviour.
God had chosen Mary for her saving role well before the birth of Her Son.
This truth arises from Our Lord’s guarantee to his Church that the Holy Spirit would guide her at all times in matters of faith and morals.
Liam (#1479):
We are all sinners and we required salvation.The mother of Jesus was also redeemed.But Mary was redeemed through a ‘preservative redemption’:that is a redemption brought about through the merits of her Son on Calvary.For God is not limited to ‘time’.
Ah!! at last you have agreed that Mary was redeemed – meaning redeemed from sin – meaning she was a “sinner” redeemed and forgiven from sin. Mary’s preservation is not required because “sin” cannot “contaminate” the child Jesus that was impregnated in her womb by the power of the Holy Ghost, because child Jesus in Mary’s womb is God – who is also the second person of the “Trinity” – Got it?? See Matthew 1:20 that says = “But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.”
Like wise when we turn to Jesus, we too are forgiven, washed and sanctified by the precious blood of Jesus. Salvation is found in Jesus only. John 14:6 – I am the truth, the way and the life, no one came come to the “father” but by me. You understood what John 14:6 explicitly states? Please do not conjure your own interpretation when we already have an explicit proof in the scriptures.
Liam, I believe God has put the the truth now in your heart.
@Alan #1475,
Excuse me! I haven’t fall back a single inch on our discussion on the contrary you evaded so many issues that we have discussed in the past. I have allowed you free of my grasp to let you reflect on so many blunders you have committed in our discussion. I have to re initiate contact so I can get your attention once again and finish the left over issues that you failed to accomplish with me. Did I not tell you that I will tackle all your issues one at a time? Your strategy of raising so many arguments is design to have a way out when cornered. That is not my style. Your letter #1475 has again full of loopholes and inconsistencies… and I shall start on the sinlessness of Mother Mary which you have erroneously implied.
Let me point out your argument about the irresponsible accusation that the blessed Mary “Word of God says its ONLY Jesus the Son of God was conceived without sin while the rest of mankind (Mary including) have “sinnedâ€. So how come Liam and yourself can claim the Catholic church to be the one true church established bu Christ can “stand†on two opposing different viewpoints or teachings? Surely one has to be false, isn’t it??â€
You are 100% correct when you said “on two opposing different view point or teachingsâ€, I am glad of your statement because this will prove of your ignorant understanding the words of the scriptures. And that you may know the axe will fall in your neck and expect it to fall!
The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Saviour of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin.
“Hail full of grace, the Lord is with you. (Lk.1:28); Protestants and Bible Christian like you are hostile to the notions of Mary’s freedom from actual sin and her Immaculate Conception (in which God freed her from original sin from the moment of her conception) because they feel that this makes her a sort of goddess and improperly set apart from the rest of humanity.
Kecharitomene has to do with God’s grace, as it is derived from the Greek root, charis (literally, “grace”). Greek scholar Marvin R. Vincent noted that even Wycliffe and Tyndale (no enthusiastic supporters of the Catholic Church) both rendered kecharitomene in Luke 1:28 as “full of grace” and that the literal meaning was “endued with grace” (Word Studies in the New Testament, Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1946, four volumes, from 1887 edition: New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons; Vol. I, 259). The Catholic argument hinges upon the meaning of kecharitomene. For Mary this signifies a state granted to her, in which she enjoys an extraordinary fullness of grace. Charis often refers to a power or ability which God grants in order to overcome sin (and this is how we interpret Luke 1:28).
St. Paul makes a clear distinction of it in (Romans 5:20).Paul conclusion was; “When Law came, it was to multiply the opportunities of falling, but however great the number of sins committed ‘grace’ was even greater;†and in (Romans 6:14); “For sin will have no dominion over you (applicable to Mary), since you are not under the Law but under the ‘grace’.â€(Romans 11:5);“So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.â€
This is a clear manifestation that God Almighty exempted Mary from all sorts of sins as she echoed in her magnificat and rightfully explained at the above paragraph ( Ketcharitomene). There were so many passages in the scriptures that support this argument but these were enough to nullify all your wrong applications and understanding about Mary.
You have once said “what is the “Will of the Father†Jesus speaks off in Matthew 7:21? #1406â€
Well have you not remember that the blessed mother (Mary) was in total submission to the “Will of the Father†when she acknowledged the message of Gabrielle? You cannot just dismiss this verse because you Bible Christians often used this argument but always been fall short and had been misguided of its essence. You see, the Mary that you are dismissing is the one who follow the “Will of the Father.
1. The Bible teaches that we are saved by God’s grace.
2. The Bible teaches that we need God’s grace to live a holy life, above sin.
3. To be “full of” God’s grace, then, is to be saved.
4. Therefore, Mary is saved.
5. To be “full of” God’s grace is also to be so holy that one is sinless.
6. Therefore, Mary is holy and sinless.
7. The essence of the Immaculate Conception is sinlessness.
The Immaculate Conception is a Catholic dogma that asserts that Mary, the mother of Jesus, was preserved by God from the stain of original sin at the time of her own conception.
Jesus became incarnate of the Virgin Mary, she must be completely free from sin or original sin to bear the Son of God, and Mary is redeemed by the grace of Christ in a perfect manner than any other human beings. Christ cannot have the flesh of His Father in heaven for God is Spirit, so He took His flesh from Mary something not possible without divine intervention.
Martin Luther writes in reference to the Mother of God. Is Christ only to be adored? Or is the holy Mother of God rather not to be honored? This is the woman who crushed the Serpent’s head. Hear us. For your Son denies you nothing.
In 1Jn.4:3; “You can tell the spirits that come from God by this: every spirit which acknowledges that Jesus the Christ has come in the flesh (from Woman) is from God; but any spirit which will not say this of Jesus is not from God; but is the spirit of the Antichrist, whose coming you are warned about. Well, now he is here, in the world. This is the passages I offered you to expound and I will take this opportunity to correct your wrong impression of Her. I believe when you said the statement below, you are totally unprepared of your argument because you may not be aware this will be the telling blow, a counter punch that could knock you out.
â€Surely one has to be false, isn’t it?? Surely because of the false teachings on Mary, the Catholic church will SURELY stand against the gates of Hell because it is an apostate church belonging to satan.†Really!!!
I have already supplied you the doctrine of ‘Apostolic Succession’ of our Church and that is very historical compare to what your bogus record you have if any. By the way, you have not produced any document to justify your lineage of apostolic succession. This only proves my contention that you were the people mentioned in (1John 4:1-3) and (1John2:18-19) that I will illustrate below.
If Bible Christian refuses to acknowledge that Jesus Christ came from the flesh (of the Virgin) then the message is self explanatory, they were prepare to be called the anti-Christ as suggested by 1John4;1-3, but if they acknowledge Jesus Christ came from the flesh (of the virgin) they were contradicting their popular belief against Mary. So their teachings destroy within. Either way they will always branded to be false teachers in this later day time. Not us!
Here is another passage that will help us identify the true identity of these false teachers.
The passage in (1John 2:18-19) is one of the essential bases to build the foundation of faith because this will be the ultimate goal to be strong of your conviction; when John said, referring to the rivals of Christ “Those rivals of Christ came out of our own number, but they had never really belonged; if they belonged, they would have stayed with us; but they left us, to prove that no one of them ever belonged to us.†Was actually an eye opener statement; Now, these are the questions; Have you dear Alan read first the history of our fore fathers (the first Christian) who had painstakingly recorded all the acts of propagation of their apostolic works? If you don’t, may I have your attention focus in the first statement: Firstly; 1.) “ came out of our own number, but they had never really belonged;†that will be first solid base of the foundation I will help you to establish; meaning, they were the first Christian who heard the Word and been converted: Secondly; 2.) “if they belonged, they would have stayed with us;†meaning, after been converted they would have stayed to their first calling: Thirdly, 3.) â€but they left us, to prove that no one them ever belonged to us.†meaning, they departed to their calling or renouncing the teaching of our fore fathers that we must hold steadfast; After breaking the above passage into three categories, will help us arrive to a just conclusion who these false teachers will be appearing in the later day time. I just hope you arrive with conviction unmasking the true identify to whom these passage (1John2:18-19) pertain to. With certainty, I can tell you with straight face that all denominations that breaks its tie to the Roman Catholic Church falls to these two verses. “The ravenous wolves in sheep’s clothing you have mentioned onetime.â€
Lastly, Genesis 3:15, speaks of enmity between the woman seed and the serpent seed, are you not aware of these enmities?
It’s happening now! Reflect while there still time to repent.
Jesus king of mercy I trust in you.
Ave Maria!
Christine Marie (#1481)
You have taken the first paragraph of your argument above “verbatim” from the teachings of the CCC, which is no-where find in the Bible. So it does NOT stand ground because it comes from the writings of man-traditions and not divine inspired teachings as found in scripture.
With regards to Luke 1:28 – the KJV version “And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women“.
Here the keywords are: (i) Highly favoured (and Not Full of Grace), and (ii) among women, and NOT above women.
So God Word simply says – “highly favoured”. and among women,not above women.
Besides God Word does clearly say in Ephesians 2:8-9, that we are saved by God’s Grace thru faith..
So RC teaching of the CCC on Mary is a “far-fetched” idea that does not hold any truth in the Scripture.
In the body of Christ, all are on equal footing no special privileges are given to mortal human beings (Mary included). St Peter makes it clear of this in Acts 10:34
Christine Marie (#1481):
The scripture talks only about Jesus being “immaculately” conceived in Mary’s womb. It does not speak about Mary’s immaculate conception.
Christine Marie (#1481):
If Mary was immaculately conceived from the stain of original sin, then so also Mary’s mother needs to be also immaculately conceived from stain of original sin from Mary’s grand-mothers woman .. until the whole family chain gets involved :) The RC Church is conveniently silent on this issue without any proof. So I guess the RC teaching is only to appease those who have a hatred toward Jesus.
Bible believing Christians are not against Mary, but simple abide/obey what scripture teaches – which is the only truth. RC Church tradition that goes contrary to the Word of God is NOT acceptable and binding on Bible believing Christians.
To all Bible Christians,
Whoever does not wish to have Immaculate Mary as his Mother…will not have Christ as his Brother.
ST. Maximilian Mary Kolbe
Ave Maria!
@Alan # 1481-1483,
“The scripture talks only about Jesus being “immaculately†conceived in Mary’s womb. It does not speak about Mary’s immaculate conception.#1483â€: “And If Mary was immaculately conceived from the stain of original sin, then so also Mary’s mother needs to be also immaculately conceived from stain of original sin from Mary’s grand-mothers woman .. until the whole family chain gets involved #1484â€:
You have really a very, very, poor theology… let us follow your argument then. If that is your way of reasoning, then it follows Jesus himself was also been stained with original sin because He was born of his mother. By golly, from what school of theology did you learn that argument?
What is your point #1482, between amongst women and above women? Would you care explaining to us of your best shot there? You want to make a score without entering into a ball game. I have already given you name of Greek scholar who have explained the Greek root word, charis , literally means (grace) that even Wycliffe and Tyndale both rendered acceptance meaning full of grace. You are trying to bend what is straight forward meaning of the word charis/kecharitome.
Anyway, I should not be surprised of that since from the very beginning you are trained for that purpose.
Lastly, where do you think I must follow (verbatim) my argument to you from other school of thoughts that would me astray?
Jesus king of mercy I trust in you. Ave Maria!
1477
Your reasoning is bizarre,Alan,or you just lack average intelligence!
However,your answers confirm why Jesus saw a need for a Church. For if the Catholic Church was not established christianity would be in a far worse mess than it is Today. I refer here to a divided christianity and hundreds upon hundreds of so called churches claiming to be the Church of Jesus.(Anglican, Presbyterian,etc,.)to name but a few.And of course your own personally established so called ‘Church’.
I wonder how manny more are in the process of coming into being as I now write.A birth based upon one person’s private interpretation of Holy Scripture!!!!!!!
Thus one sees the need for Holy Tradition.!!!!!!!
And may I add that God preserving Mary from sin has no bearing on the sins of her parents or grandparents.By your answer you are limiting the power of almighty God.In fact your thinking reeks of satanism and again confirms the necessity of the Catholic Church whose role is to ensure the defence of truth and accurate interpretation of the Scriptures of Christianity.
May God guide You!!!!!!!
Alan,
1484.
Jesus is immaculate- God had not to make him ‘immaculate’!Your statement implies that Jesus is or was ‘impure’.
The immaculate conception relates to the conception of Jesus by the Holy Spirit in the God preserved sinless womb of Mary- his mother.
Such twisted comment confirms that you are possibly an agent of the ‘father of lies’.
And to those sincere non Catholic believers in Christ who have been following this debate please be careful for an anti-Christ contribution is what you may be observing from Alan.For bear in mind and recall that Judas was one of the chosen 12 and of course his satanic act of betrayal!
Slan.
PS)
Alan, I pray for you but I am wasting my time in debating with you.An objective consideration of your contributions to this debate,especially your latest-that Jesus was ‘impure’,is terrible.
Lovers of Christ: is not Mary the Mother of Christ?
Yes she is!
Therefore she is our Mother to!
For Jesus through Mary acquired a human body composed like that of other men and women.But being the Son of God Jesus had a kind of spiritual and mystical body which is the society of those who believe in him.Thus as a consequence bearing in her womb our Saviour may be said to have borne those whose life was contained in the life of Jesus.Thus all of us have come forth from the womb of Mary as a Body united to its Head.Therefore in a spiritual and mystical sense we are children of Mary and she is the mother of us all.
To be part of the body of Christ in this context Mary is Our Mother for as mother of Jesus we are part of His Body for we are the society or the body of Christ.
You have really a very, very, poor theology… let us follow your argument then. If that is your way of reasoning, then it follows Jesus himself was also been stained with original sin because He was born of his mother. By golly, from what school of theology did you learn that argument?
No, i do not have poor theology. And you don’t require rocket science to deduce the truth. What I see is that your are “seduced” with posh theology mumbo-jumbo “imparted” by hi-fi theologians in the vatican. Jesus is God – the second person of the Trinity who can never be contaminated with sin from whatsoever source. Your reasoning is out of bounds.
Jesus is only “fully of Grace & truth – John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Only Jesus was conceived without sin – 2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. Why?? Because Jesus is God who existed befoe the foundations of the World began, and before Mary, you, Liam and myself were born. He created Mary. Mary is a created mortal human being like the rest of mankind.
God in his kingdom has no special privileges for anyone as all are equal before Him. God the Father did not fabricate the “Indian Caste System” – a system of segregation, that caused division among humanity. A hierarchical Brahminical caste based nonsense fabricated by mankind against mankind. What does the RC Church teach of Dulia, hyper-dulia and Latria worship. Is is not a system of hierarchical segregation in trying to elevated certain people only. Like the Catholic priesthood clergy who are set as a class above the laity. Did not martin luther revolt against sacerdotal system that access to God by the laity is through a barrier of poppish clowns?? Can we not approach the throne of Grace directly. The Bible gives all that privileges to all true born again bible believing Christians. I am free just as Jesus said – “you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free. I Thank God i am not enslaved in bondage by that sacerdotal priesthood system. I pity and pray for those oppressed, who have no hope of their salvation as there is no salvation found in the RC Church.
Have a Good day.
Christine Marie (#1485):
To all Bible Christians,
Whoever does not wish to have Immaculate Mary as his Mother…will not have Christ as his Brother. ST. Maximilian Mary Kolbe.
That is the interpretation of the said Maximilian Mary Kolbe, whoever the chap maybe. But … 1 John 2:23 says Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
I believe what the Bible says in 1 John 2:23. I discard “as utter garbage” the statement of the so called Maximilian Mary Kolbe – false teachings of man which has no basis in scripture.
1480
Confirms that one (the author of 1480)cannot understand simple English or appearing to not understand so as to use mis-interpretation as a weapon on behalf of his personal egoism.
To those sincere followers of Christ please read 1480 to see how my contribution was twisted.And this is not the only untruthful occurence in this debate.
~~~~~~~
Mary was as stated a daughter of human parents
who bore the ‘original sin’ of our 1st parents.
Part of redemption undertaken by Jesus
was to destroy the influence of that calamity.Through the merits of his sacrifice and the institution of Baptism.
For although he was sinless he alowed John the Baptist to baptise Him in order to emphasise the importance of Holy Baptism.For all of humanity bears the reality of ‘original sin’when we are conceived.But because God had ordained prior to the coming of his Word in Jesus he preserved Mary from the stain of ‘original sin’.If he had not then logically the Word becoming ‘MAN’-WOULD HAVE BEEN STAINED WITH ‘ORIGINAL SIN’VIA HIS MOTHER CONCEIVING HIM.
Thus the ‘MAN’element of Our Saviour ensured THAT MARY WOULD NOT BEAR ANY TRACE OF OUR FIRST PARENTS INITIAL SIN.For as I have stated in the past in no way could Jesus have sin in his person.Thus God preserved Mary because her flesh including her genes are part of human matter and in no way would He allow sin be a part of the flesh which Jesus shares with his Mother.
“Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you. (Luke 1:28)
Blessed art thou among women (Luke 1:41-42, Luke 1:48),
Blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus (Luke 1:42)
Holy Mary, Mother of God (Luke 1:43)
Pray for us sinners, (1 Tim 2:1-4)
now and at the hour of our death. Amen (Psalm 23:4;Psalm 116:15;1Cor.15:20-23;1Thes.5:9-11;Rom.14-8)
@Brother Liam,
You hit the bulls eye by your (#1492) comment. That’s exactly the correct illustration of the sinlessness of our Blessed Mary. Well as far as i have seen, and as sir Alan chooses to be stubborn we cannot do anything to extract him on the heel of the woman…(Gen.3-15). He will never admit the blunder he had committed in trying to destroy the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception.
I pity you sir Alan, i hope and i pray that the Holy Spirit enlighten you by its abundant grace to restore your sound reasoning. There were so many filters in your mind as correctly implied by bro./sis.Sharon.
Ave Maria!
Christine Marie (#1493)
The Hail Mary prayer which is prayed by the laity in the RC Church is not doubt some portions have biblical truth, while the “rest” was a twist to whoever the insane person wrote the prayer,that contains un-biblical teachings.
“Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you. (Luke 1:28)
Jesus the Son of God is only “fully of Grace & truth (And Not Mary) – John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
All catholic bibles have “dubiously” modified luke 1:28 to show Mary is “full of Grace” instead of “Highly favoured”.
But I can provide with live proof that even versions of catholic bibles are not consistent.
Let’s look at an online example of a Catholic Bible version hosted by US CONFERENCE OF CATHOLIC BISHOPS a version which says “highly favored” instead of “full of grace”. See http://www.usccb.org/bible/luke/1
See the proof now?? Even there is no consistency among catholic bible versions, as I have mentioned times in the past that they are satanic corrupted versions. Now go take you pick and scratch you head over it. And you too Liam.
There is a huge difference between “Full of Grace” and “Highly favored”. People like you don’t see satanic deceptiveness in disguise.
Sorry to interrupt this debate.
Alan’s logic..”Jesus the Son of God is only “fully of Grace & truth”..is confusing.(#1495)
What he wants to prove went over my head.
Jesus is the Son of God. Period!
No need to say only He is full of grace. God doesn’t need to shower His Grace upon Himself.
No need to say “Only He is full of Truth.” He is Truth Himself. Period!!
Dear Alan, no one here is interested to know the difference between “full of grace” and “highly favored.” God’s Word is not limited by your literary theories. Put some solid logic.
No bible version is perfect. That’s why we have Magesterium.
Mary is The “Mother of My Lord.”(Elizabeth’s words) and you say she was a sinner. My Lord’s mother was a sinner???!!! Shame to you!
None of your logics is christian.
Liam & Christine Marie:
For although he was sinless he alowed John the Baptist to baptise Him in order to emphasise the importance of Holy Baptism.For all of humanity bears the reality of ‘original sin’when we are conceived.
In regards to Baptism in the Gospels by John the Baptist, the question I have for both of you i write below and appreciate an answer.
Question: What exactly is the purpose of John Baptizing in the Gospels and what type of Baptism did John the baptist preach.
Thanks and God Bless.
In discussing the person of Mary it is important that we do not enter the domain of’Marian Excess’.That is placing her on the level of ‘the divine’.
For to ascribe to her a ‘divine nature’- equal to Jesus,himself- would not be true.In fact it violates the revealed truth about the complete though exalted humanity of God’s Mother and Our Mother.
Of course we must be wary of the other extreme known as ‘Marian Defect’.This means minimizing the role of Mary.A role given to her by God.In fact this extreme violates as this debate confirms the revealed truth of the role of Mary in our salvation.For this defect endorses Mary’s role as being only a ‘good disciple;,’a sister in the Lord’;or a mere means, that is, ‘a physical channel of Jesus’,but nothing beyond the latter.
The foregoing is important but for the present I provide a prayer to Mary (aside from the Bible based first part of the ‘Hail Mary’ which was composed by the Angel Gabriel when he visited Mary to inform her, if she accepted,the role Our Creator wished her to play in human salvation).This prayer one of a number from the early years of Christianity and endorsed by the Church while dated from 250 years after the death of her Son,Jesus,(250AD),and it was used by Christians throughout the history of the Catholic Church.
~~~
Under Your Protection
~
We fly to your patronage,
O Holy Mother of God,
despise not our petitions
in our necessities,
but deliver us from all danger,
O ever glorious and blessed Virgin.
~
An example of not being defective and not being excessive in the Marian sense plus an endorsement of Mary’s role as confirmed by holy tradition and holy scripture.
Anon (#1496):
Jesus is the Son of God. Period!
No need to say only He is full of grace. God doesn’t need to shower His Grace upon Himself.
No need to say “Only He is full of Truth.†He is Truth Himself. Period!!
First and foremost you decided to post anonymously itself speaks volumes that you are in “darkness”.
You still have to learn alot because you are a “cradle-roman-catholic”.
Jesus is the Son of God and being God he dispenses grace not upon himself (as you have mis-understood) but to mankind.
No need to say He is full grace? The Bible which is the Word of God says it so in John 1:14.
The Word of God is the final authority and not those stupid clowns that form the Magisterium. I am sorry for your ignorance of the truth. What I see in you is just “religious fanaticism”.
Every created human being on earth is a “sinner” – Myself, You, Mary, The Pope, Priests, Pastors, Bishops etc. Got it??
@Alan #1495,
I take pleasure for your being consistently inconsistent…why? Because your reference used was again dud with no fire power at all!
I have checked the reference you have mentioned only to find out later that your understanding once again was dubious. In “Chess parlance†the move was highly questionable and cannot be consider a novelty move. The USCCB does not meet for the purpose to make distinction of the correct translation of highly favored or FULL OF GRACE, it is so just happened that the chapter (LUKE1) they were expounding used the word “highly favored†because the Bible they have used was written and interpreted that way. Technically “highly favored†denotes a less precise interpretation and it is not bad but if there is someone who is stubborn like you Catholic apologist knows how and when to use “FULL OF GRACE†in its more precise application/interpretation.
May I ask, why are you bible believing Christian so earnest in disproving the sinlessness of Mary? Are you not aware that you may fulfill prophesy of Gen. 3:15? Well, that’s bad! Even the “Magnificat†you are hell bent in twisting the exaltation of our Lady, making it appear that she needs a Savior because she has sinned…
Now, there are two instances where the word ‘magnify’ is used in an explicit subject-object paradigm. The first is in the Magnificat:
And Mary said: “My soul magnifies the Lord and my spirit has rejoiced in God my Saviorâ€
And the second occurs in Philippians 1:20:
“Christ will even now, as always, be exalted in my body whether by life or by deathâ€
The back ground to Philippians 1:20 relates to Paul’s imprisonment, and through his suffering in his body he may glorify, exalt, and magnify God. This teaching, by itself, is magnanimous. But how is one to understand Mary bold exaltation? How can a sinner’s soul ‘magnify’ God? St. Paul’s body can magnify God through his suffering when he unites it with Jesus’ suffering, but how can Mary soul increased our appreciation of God, if she was a sinner? The answer lies in the application of the passage; suggestively, that Mary’s soul is holy, unblemished, pure, stain less, in a word, immaculately clean. She can only magnify God if her soul, through which she magnifies God, is transparent of any particular or original sin.
Let me remind you of one fatal mistake you have just committed. And I quote;
“The Hail Mary prayer which is prayed by the laity in the RC Church is not doubt some portions have biblical truth, while the “rest†was a twist to whoever the insane person wrote the prayer,that contains un-biblical teachings.â€
If you are not sure of malicious imputation you better withhold comment, because your very statement contradicts itself. Which is which, have biblical truth or contains un-biblical teachings?
“There is more hope to a stupid fool than for someone who speaks without thinking.†Prov.29:20
Jesus king of mercy I thrust in you. Ave Maria!
1497:
Sacred scripture (Gen 1;2)sees ‘water’ as being ‘overshadowed’ by the Spirit of God.
Bapism is prefigured in the crossing of the river Jordan by which the people of God received the land promised to Abraham’s descendents.An image of life eternal.Now, this promised inheritance is fulfilled in the New Covenant.
That and other prefigurations receive their fulfillment in Christ for by having himself baptised by the Baptist related to the images of water prefigurations in the Old Testament.In fact, Jesus begins his public life after he himself was baptised (Mt3:13).Of course he did nor require it for he was sinless but he was presenting a message prior to establishing His Church upon Peter.
For after the resurrection relating back to his baptism he said to the apostles ‘Go therefore and make disciples of all nations,baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.'(Mt 28:19-20; Mk 16:15-16.)
Baptism was one of Christ’s commands.Also his baptism by the Baptist was in order to ‘fulfil all righteousness'(Mt 3:15)That is, his gesture was a manifestation of his self- emptying.The Spirit who had hovered over the waters of the 1st Creation descended on Jesus as a prelude of the New Creation,and God then revealed Jesus as his ‘beloved son,(Mt 3:16-17).
THE CONVERSION OF BORN-AGAIN PASTOR MICHAEL CUMBIE
Former Pentecostal preacher Mike Cumbie now a Catholic lay preacher…
If you had told me the truth would have led me to the Roman Catholic Church, I would have slapped you and your momma. SHUT UP!
by Leonard Alt on Sunday, July 1, 2012 at 4:21am ·
MICHAEL CUMBIE; “Catholic!!! There is no such thing as truth and Catholic in the same sentence. That was just the way I was raised.â€
What would make this Protestant pastor for twenty three years convert to Catholicism? “I wanted to go back to the beginning, cause there is so many denominations and I love them all. All filled with wonderful Christian people. But a lot of confusion among us as Protestants, about whose version of the Bible is the right version, whose interpretation is the right interpretation…no authority.â€
Baptism doeth now save you; that was in my Baptist bible and I never saw it because I had Baptist glasses. Whatever your tradition is, and this is not a criticism, this is how it should be. If you’re a Southern Baptist, then when you read the Bible you put on your Southern Baptist glasses and that’s the filter. If you’re a Methodist, you have Methodist glasses. If you are Presbyterian, the filter the lens through which you see is going to be from your denomination. This is the way it should be. Somebody said “well Michael all you did was trade off all those glasses in for a set of Catholic glasses. I said that’s true, but there the original pair. That is who gave us the Scripture and the Catholic Church is really the one that has the authority to interpret the book.
Michael has made a couple of excellent points here. The Bible alone is not enough to solve the confusion of whose interpretation is correct and that is why he wanted to go back to the beginning. The second point he makes is the type of glasses you wear determines how you interpret the Bible. In this he is admitting that everybody is coming from somewhere and is actually admitting that everyone has a tradition that colors how they see the Bible.
One of the things I always liked about the Catholic Church is that it is a very honest church. The Church admits up front that we follow the Bible and the teaching TRADITION of the Catholic Church. Protestants will admit that the Catholic Church has a tradition and in fact will criticize the Catholic Church for it. All the while, they will deny they too have a tradition as well. This is not very honest because they too see Scripture through their own set of glasses. A non-Catholic who gets to the point of honestly admitting that they have a TRADITION is well on his way to becoming Catholic whether he knows it or not.
MICHAEL CUMBIE IS AN EXCELLENT WRITER AND SPEAKER IF YOU WISH TO HEAR THE REST OF THE STORY CONTACT HIM ON FACE BOOK OR the website The Catholic Company for his materials. http://search.catholiccompany.com/search?w=Cumbie
I hope and i pray Sir Alan will follow suit!
Jesus king of mercy i trust in you.
Ave Maria!
Christine Marie (#1500)
May I ask, why are you bible believing Christian so earnest in disproving the sinlessness of Mary?
No, we are not earnest is disproving the sinlessness of Mary, rather.. we are are told to be like the good Beareans to check the scriptures because of man-made heresies show up which tend to “add” unscrupulous teachings that deceive the people and contradict the scriptures. We have no problem if the scriptures say that Mary was not a sinner. From what i see is that you don’t believe in the scriptures being the Word of God but rather prefer to accept the “heretical” teaching of whatever the pope says so – there-by eulogizing the pope as the ultimate authority and the God of this earth replacing GOD himself. We should not submit ourselves to “blind obedience”. We cannot contaminate the scriptures with sort of extra-heretical teachings and add to the Word of God. This makes God a liar when we add human teachings to the Word of God. St.Paul to the church at Galatia (Galatians 1:6) “warned” the believers of “false teachers” who crept into the early churches but were on the sly preaching a false gospel because they were polluting the simple gospel of Christ that was taught to them by St.Paul. As bible believing Christians were are called to be on guard for such heresies.
you are hell bent in twisting the exaltation of our Lady, making it appear that she needs a Savior because she has sinned…
Mary herself admits that God is her savior. A sinless person does not need a savior. A saviour saves you from the curse of our Adamic sin inherited and ONLY Jesus who is GOD can save you from your sins. There you have the very statement of Mary herself from her own very mouth that she rejoiced in God her savior. Mary recognised the guilt of her sin and was forgiven when she admitted to God that He was the savior. Do we have to counter against what Mary herself declared? Who are you to put out heretical teaching contrary to what the mother of Jesus said? Are you trying to replace and take the role of Mary contrary to what she said? It certainly show you regard in High Esteem what the Roman Catholic falsely declares through the human popes.
The Church founded by Jesus on St.Peter begins not in the Vatican but the village of Caesarea Philippi when Jesus was on his way to Jerusalem.But eventually after some growth it was called the Catholic Church and when the Magisterium of Christ’s Church decided to base itself at Rome the Church of Christ has also been called the Roman Catholic Church.But what’s in a name?
The important scriptural/tradition basis and history confirms the one and only Church of Christ.The Catholic Church grew organically, shaped by events and personalities under the leadership of the Holy Spirit.The latter ensures the election of a new Pope or human leader(when required) as guranteed by Jesus when he planted the seed with St.Peter.
Those who followed Peter in his role as Pope are listed above by another contributor.The main source is the 6th century historically accurate ‘Liber Pontificalis’.
Inspite of arguement,scriptural interpretation, and lies, history confirms that the one and only Church established By Jesus is based at the Vatican.And it exists because God guaranteed that it would.Inspite of the truth that as a Divine Institution it is occupied and administered by sinners.The latter the reason for the Sacrements such as Confession.
1503
The reply you received,Christine Marie,confirms that non-Catholic church founders established their communities upon their interpretations of Holy Scripture.And here I emphasise the word ‘interpretations’. There are hundreds upon hundreds and there is no universal agreement amongst them but ONE and that is their continual attack upon the Church of Jesus under the human patronage of the Pope.
Now before I continue I acknowledge that the papacy has experienced the full range of human
experience.And those negative aspects arises from the fact that even a pope can sin.Thats why we have had popes so saintly and others who were great sinners.As was Peter with his denial of Our Saviour and Judas,one of the apostles,who betrayed him.
But inspite of sinners of various degrees the command given by Jesus to the magisterium of the Catholic Church that in matters of ‘faith and morals’ what the church announced would always be in accord with the will of God.That is why we have the Catholic Church!!!!!!!That is why it possesses the ‘keys of the kingdom of heaven’.That is why it is the source of the New Testament.
Thus the guarantee of the presence of the Holy Spirit at the heart of the Church ensuring that it does not teach heresy is attacked by those who like to ensure that man-made heresies are defeated.But it is the Holy Spirit who ensures the truth and not some human being who through personal interpretation sets up a church in opposition to the one founded by Jesus.Behaviour that is easily manipulated by satan and as as our Christian history confirms is a mighty weapon against the Church established by Jesus.
1478
I did not say what you implied that I said.Please read and reflect with prayer what you read.
When I read your comment it took me back to my youth and the statement which I heard then “That’s a thick one…”.
And as a friend (non-Catholic)said to another-“That boy does not speak for us”-(a born again).
However, I believe that you have made some converts to the Catholic Church by your hate filled comments and inronically I thank you.You are in my prayers.
For more than 3 days have passed, no response from Christine Marie in respect to my question at #1497 :-x
Liam Comain (#1506)
Have you ever read the entire chapter 53 of Book the prophet Isaiah? If not.. i encourage you to read it carefully. Isaiah 53:10 clearly says that God the Father was “fully” satisfied to bruise his own very son for the sake of salvaging mankind from sin. I don’t see it applicable to anyone else except Jesus.
Now at #1506 you suddenly got up from your deep slumber? and now try to twist and turn just like the serpent in the Garden of Eden :) My friend you are truly a lost person groping desperately for opportunities to impact your false teachings to others. I can smell you kind from far off of how you have the veil of darkness covering your eyes. May God have mercy on you and the rest who blatantly pollute the Word of God with sheer stupidity. While you still have the opportunity while you are alive, repent lest your name be blotted out from the lamb’s book of life.
Liam
1503
The reply you received,Christine Marie,confirms that non-Catholic church founders established their communities upon their interpretations of Holy Scripture.And here I emphasise the word ‘interpretations’. There are hundreds upon hundreds and there is no universal agreement amongst them but ONE and that is their continual attack upon the Church of Jesus under the human patronage of the Pope.
WHAT PROOF DO YOU HAVE THAT THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH HAS ONE ABSOLUTELY CORRECT INTERPRETATION THAT IS 100% SURE? IN FACT ORDINARY ROMAN CATHOLICS LIKE YOURSELF ARE BOT AWARE OF WHAT IS PLACED IN THE “COMMON DEPOSIT OF FAITH OR CDF” AND THE SAME IS ONLY ACCESSIBLE TO THE POPE AND THE MAGISTERIUM. SO THE REST OF THE RC LAITY ARE IN TOTAL DARKNESS ABOUT THE CDF AND HAVE TO SUBMIT TO BLIND OBEDIENCE. ITS A PITY PEOPLE CAN SUBMIT THEMSELVES TO BLIND OBEDIENCE OF HUMAN TEACHINGS RATHER THAN PLACING TRUST IN THE WORD OF GOD. BUT OFFCOURSE THE SCRIPTURES SAY THAT THE NATURAL MAN CANNOT DISCERN SPIRITUAL THINGS BECAUSE IT IS FOOLISHNESS TO THEM.
1503:
Are you denying that our God could not keep Mary free from sin? Thus you are limiting his power- the person who created all!
Surely a contradiction from a confused mentality.Yes,as I have said above Mary was redeemed by Her Son’s sacrifice for she like us are desendents of Adam and Eve but as God is not limited to ‘time’ he from eternity used the merits of his Sons sacrifice to keep Mary free from sin.
For how could a sinless Son of God be conceived by the Holy Spirit in the womb of a sinner?
You are denying the power of the Creator of ALL!!!!!!!
Mother Mary herself accepted that she needs a Savior, better read the Bible properly, don’t be a barber without a knife….